AIBU to have concerns about my husband's attitude to our children's safety?

[Kerals26]

Please can I ask whether you think I am being unreasonable to be worried about my husband’s stance/behaviour on these kid’s safety issues? When I’ve tried to raise these things with him I usually get told I’m being over-sensitive and very little, if anything, changes. Here goes:

• Leaves dangerous things lying around – for example, antifreeze in a bottle without a lid on the other day (in a VIMTO bottle nonetheless, so very appealing to the kids). Other times – bottles of superglue, random car and or chemical stuff etc. When my eldest was a baby I asked him not to put a device with a button battery within reach in her room. He argued, put it out of reach and then moved it down a few days later without my knowledge. I then found her in said room with said item, with the button battery missing which resulted in an incredibly stressful 45 minutes on the phone to 111 and searching for the battery, worried that her insides could be being burnt by it, as per the BBC info-campaign I’d seen. I found the battery, but that wasn’t really the point.
• Refuses to move his toiletries bag from within reach of the children – these contain his medication and scissors. On another occasion, our 20-month-old accessed his medication from his toiletries bag, after he pooh-pahed my concern about this. He then told me I was being paranoid about her holding his pills as she couldn’t get them out. I decided to let it run while watching her the whole time, to prove the risk to him – within minutes she had the pills out of their packaging and in her hand. He then had to come running through to get them away from her, as I was breastfeeding my youngest. Despite this incident, he still leaves his toiletries and medication in the same place, despite me clearing space for these items in an alternative place in the bathroom.
• Leaves the children in the car alone – its hard to tell how long this is for and at what distance. I know he left both kids in the car when he was at a workshop recently. He told me he got my eldest out when she set the alarm off, and left the younger one sleeping. I think the car was in sight of the workshop. When they went of running errands recently my eldest also told me ‘Daddy left us in the car watching Peppa Pig’. I don’t know were they were or how long this was for but if it was for 2 minutes to pay for petrol while watching the car, I can’t see he’d have set Peppa Pig up.
• Leaves fire starting materials in reach of the children – matches, firelighters, fire starting fluids (albeit with child proof tops), insecticide spray and poop-pahing me when I have said I want to move these out of reach.
• Refused to get a fireguard when the kids were younger (and wont now, although there are older and more aware of fire safety).
• Takes the kids to the park and leaves them in the enclosed area while he drives his monster truck adjacent to the park. The kids are 3 and 4 so I often end up ‘spotting’ or assisting them on equipment when I take them to the park. Him not being very nearby, to dive in if required, bothers me.
• Installing locks on the children’s doors and locking them into their room to play, while he works in another room (‘supervising’ them on their babycam). I don’t like the ‘distance supervising’ or the psychological impact of them feeling ‘locked in’. They have told me they don’t like it.
• Inadequate supervision when out – on several occasions my eldest has told me they got ‘lost’ or couldn’t find Daddy, when they were out. In the summer he had them all day at a public event and my eldest told me there were approached by a lady asking where their Mummy was. I feel they must have been out of his sight for a while on this occasion (he admitted to me they had ‘gone round the back of the tent’ at one point) as, as an adult, I tend to observe potentially lost children for a little while before approaching them , looking round for a parent who may be watching from a distance or frantically looking for them.

What do you think of these behaviours? AIBU to be really worried?

I'm not quite sure why you posed this as a question because you know very well that all these issues are of concern. You've posted a lot lately about your husband, who you clearly dislike and have done for some time now. What is the point of getting worked up further and angered by a public forum. You know that you want a divorce and to leave, so just go ahead and facilitate it. Put your energy into that instead.

Although I still don't understand why you left him for 9 months and then decided to move back in with him so that you didn't have to face lockdown on your own, having already called social services on him.

I haven’t RTWT but is your DH ill?

@Kerals26 in the nicest possible way...

Why did you complain about the social worker?

@endofthelinefinally

All those demanding to know why OP hasn't left, unfortunately the courts insist that children must be left alone with abusive men for extended periods of time. This is why mothers are trapped. It is shocking, but it is what it is.

In fairness though as pointed out by PP...

OP created those responses by giving no background and appearing to ask if these things were unreasonable which has been a massive drip feed.

OP, I've read your latest messages and I can understand your approach completely, but you're still very much down the rabbit hole of his world.

You went to talk to him about your concerns - this is the not the action you need to take. This is not a minor relationship issue that will be solved by communication.

You are trying to get support and reassurance from him. I get it, your life and your children's lives are entered with his. But this man is not going to support you. He is not going to change. He is going to make you feel crazy and irrational and unreasonable until you believe it.

He does not prioritise the mental and physical well-being of you and your children.

Please don't become a statistic OP.

Please get out.

I'm also at a loss to understand why, when you confronted him over these safety issues, he agreed to make changes, Inc get a fireguard? So, what stopped you from successfully raising these issues before? or is it simply a case that he agreed to do these things, but will likely forget? You also said that you worked up the courage after the outrage shown on Mumsnet, but surely you were outraged long before this? And you were able to point out the mess that he made of your oven re the pizza. You found the courage to do that. You found the courage to raise the issue of divorce on several occasions, to leave him for 9 months, to buy a BBQ and use it when he didn't like it. So it's harder to explain why you didn't just go out and buy a fireguard yourself? Or remove the locks from the doors? If you accuse him of neglect, you may also be exposing yourself to a counter argument in court that you also failed to address some of the risks that you had highlighted. It would be different had you bought a fireguard and he threw it away, forbade you to use it/threatened you etc, but as it is, you could be accused of failing to mitigate those hazards. You need to collate evidence/photos etc and also be seen to be more proactive in terms of their safety lest this all come up in court.

I couldn't even finish reading your list because it was making me feel anxious OP. This is awful behaviour, my nerves would be shot living like that.

@Arthersleep

I'm also at a loss to understand why, when you confronted him over these safety issues, he agreed to make changes, Inc get a fireguard? So, what stopped you from successfully raising these issues before? or is it simply a case that he agreed to do these things, but will likely forget? You also said that you worked up the courage after the outrage shown on Mumsnet, but surely you were outraged long before this? And you were able to point out the mess that he made of your oven re the pizza. You found the courage to do that. You found the courage to raise the issue of divorce on several occasions, to leave him for 9 months, to buy a BBQ and use it when he didn't like it. So it's harder to explain why you didn't just go out and buy a fireguard yourself? Or remove the locks from the doors? If you accuse him of neglect, you may also be exposing yourself to a counter argument in court that you also failed to address some of the risks that you had highlighted. It would be different had you bought a fireguard and he threw it away, forbade you to use it/threatened you etc, but as it is, you could be accused of failing to mitigate those hazards. You need to collate evidence/photos etc and also be seen to be more proactive in terms of their safety lest this all come up in court.

When you are in a relationship with a controlling, manipulative partner like OP is, you begin questioning everything about your own thoughts and behaviour.

The OP's husband has previously minimised her concerns, and made her feel like she was nagging and being unreasonable.

Manipulative people are great at this. Even in the last conversation she had with him, he's managed to convince her locking the children in a room is safer than them being out of sight in another room (enough for her to drop the argument). He brought up an example of when one of the kids fell off a chair in her care, and said she was at fault for this and therefore can't criticise him for locking them in a room.

Do you see what he's doing? He's making her doubt herself.

OP - for what it's worth, kids fall off chairs. It is not the equivalent of locking them in a room.

Please see what's happening here.

I've only read page 1 but aside from the dangerous chemical in drinks bottle, battery etc it's the door locks That have chilled me.

It's really scary stuff and maybe he does need a ss referral and knowledge that what he thinks is acceptable is absolutely not acceptable in our society..

Arthur, I don't know this op or the back story and I have just read back from my post and page 1.

I don't think your post is kind or helpful. I've been in an abusive relationship with my in laws when I was extremely vulnerable. They made me question everything, put my mental health at risk and I posted loads about them, unfortunately I wasn't on mn at the time, but the years after I have posted about various incidents, problems and each time kind posters helped me see the.. Rabbit hole I was down, and eventually helped me get the strength to say, no more, when really all of society veneer is agaisnt you. It took a lot of time... It's even more intense when it's the father of your children!

People sometimes need to post and post and post... Isn't this is exactly what mn is fir?. So what if she's posted too much to annoy you, and you don't get it?.. Bugger off from her thread. If you feel it's not true... Tell mnhq

it's tricky.

leave and you potentially have to leave two children with him in his sole care for a weekend until he actually does some damage to them.

or never ever leave them with him while you stay with him, and supervise the children much more closely (as in they are never with him alone and you don't let them wander off around the house without supervising them really closely because you are never going to know what he has left out.)

bloody nightmare.

On balance I would go with leave and not encourage contact, nor chase it. he sounds more interested in doing the things he wants to do and day to day life will be much safer for the children.

Omg. Is he a lunatic? It's like he refuses to take basic precautions 🤦‍♀️

This..... 100%.

Please call them..

I worked in child protection too.. One of the worse cases I worked on was similar... The father was a teacher... Chilling. He thought he was above the law... And he could decide how to behave towards his poor child victims.

Please leave before he kills one of your kids.

@NullcovoidNovember

But the reality is that in court, she would need stronger evidence than 'he made me doubt myself/wore me down'. The OP, by her own admission suffers from terrible anxiety which has arguably contributed to her being worn down/lack of confidence. I can relate to this. However, this doesn't make her husbands 'coercive' behaviour become more unreasonable in the eyes of the law. The reality is that she has to also be seen to be able to put the safety of her children first. It's a case of being practical about these issues.

OP I'd like to know what you mean when you say he "won't tolerate" things like you taking the initiative and buying a fireguard/moving or throwing out dangerous shit/removing locks from doors. What would he do? What do you fear? You say he "tears a strip off you" for moving his things - does this mean he becomes shouty and abusive? Does he do this in front of the children? Does he threaten you physically either explicitly or implicitly (stamping, punching walls, throwing objects)? How does he respond if you ask him to stop/calm down?

Most importantly CAN YOU FILM THIS? Because if the outcome of you defying him is abusive behaviour, it would almost be worth "provoking" him into it and recording it to have evidence you can take to the police station (not his!!) and have him removed from the home. You can then keep him from the children unless he compels you to the family court, at which point all you can do is present as much evidence as you can that he is not safe to have the kids by himself.

Frankly I'd be surprised if he wanted much contact given he doesn't seem to give a shit about them except as a means to control you.

But it is important what you mean. If your anxiety/eagerness to please means you are appeasing him just because you can't tolerate conflict/disagreement, and you know he won't be happy if you for example move his washbag or take the locks off, but there won't actually be any consequences that rise to abuse, then you need to work on your own assertiveness.

By the way I am myself in a difficult relationship with a man who likes things just so and has issues controlling his temper. And I am a chronic people pleaser so it has taken me a long time to stand up for myself. But ultimately I could not take what his outbursts of anger were doing to our daughter. I gave him an ultimatum that I would leave if he didn't seem help. He is now accessing therapy and his behaviour has been much better. As I suspected, he CAN control it -as he does at work, in public etc - he just felt like his home environment was "his space" where he could let loose his frustrations and issues. It isn't. It's OURS. It's my daughter's home, it's her safe space, and he knows I will 100% prioritise her wellbeing over his. For me I had been putting up with it for years, I had no clue how much I had compromised myself to accommodate him until she was born and suddenly what had been good enough for me was categorically not good enough for her. Try to stop seeing yourself as a victim - you are an adult with agency; your kids are absolutely helpless and you are the ONLY person who can blow up this awful dynamic. Currently it is the worst of all worlds - their environment is unsafe all the time because it is dictated by their neglectful, abusive father; their mother is walking on eggshells and becoming increasingly subservient and mentally ill; they have no sanctuary.

Worst case, you leave him and he gets some time alone with them. Horrifying thought, but at the moment he gets time alone with them anyway, you are "not allowed" to correct any of the things in their environment that endanger them, you are not or you cannot protect them. They are not safe just because you are there. He won't let you make them safe.

At least if you leave they will be for at least some of the time (probably most of the time) with you, in a safe, stable, non-abusive environment where they have a sanctuary and can heal. When they are with their dad it is out of your hands, but every. Single. Time they report anything less than safe to you you can compile it as evidence, report to SS, and make a case for reduced/supervised contact.

It's really all you can do. Would you rather be abused all the time with ineffective mitigation from your mother (as someone else characterised it, "dad hurts them and mum lets him") or be exposed to your abused only some of the time with a safe home to go back to and get help from a mother who is much more effective because she had her own home and is emotionally and financially separate from the abuser and can thus fight and advocate for you without fear for herself?

Give your children the best YOU can. You can't control him, you can't make up for him. You can only protect them from Jim as much as you can, and you'll do that much better away from him.

I feel sick reading this. I agree with other contributers that it sounds like he is actively trying to cause harm or has some kind of psychiatric problem that changes how he processes risk. I know what it is like to be a victim of coercive control but please hear what people are saying to you and speak to whoever you need to in order to keep these children safe. GP, SS, Womens Aid, family, friends. I would dedicate my entire life to making sure he is never alone with my children. Keep talking, people on here will be able to give you valuable support.

@VeniceQueen2004

By the way I am myself in a difficult relationship with a man who likes things just so and has issues controlling his temper. And I am a chronic people pleaser so it has taken me a long time to stand up for myself. But ultimately I could not take what his outbursts of anger were doing to our daughter. I gave him an ultimatum that I would leave if he didn't seem help. He is now accessing therapy and his behaviour has been much better. As I suspected, he CAN control it -as he does at work, in public etc - he just felt like his home environment was "his space" where he could let loose his frustrations and issues. It isn't. It's OURS. It's my daughter's home, it's her safe space, and he knows I will 100% prioritise her wellbeing over his. For me I had been putting up with it for years, I had no clue how much I had compromised myself to accommodate him until she was born and suddenly what had been good enough for me was categorically not good enough for her. Try to stop seeing yourself as a victim - you are an adult with agency; your kids are absolutely helpless and you are the ONLY person who can blow up this awful dynamic. Currently it is the worst of all worlds - their environment is unsafe all the time because it is dictated by their neglectful, abusive father; their mother is walking on eggshells and becoming increasingly subservient and mentally ill; they have no sanctuary.

Worst case, you leave him and he gets some time alone with them. Horrifying thought, but at the moment he gets time alone with them anyway, you are "not allowed" to correct any of the things in their environment that endanger them, you are not or you cannot protect them. They are not safe just because you are there. He won't let you make them safe.

At least if you leave they will be for at least some of the time (probably most of the time) with you, in a safe, stable, non-abusive environment where they have a sanctuary and can heal. When they are with their dad it is out of your hands, but every. Single. Time they report anything less than safe to you you can compile it as evidence, report to SS, and make a case for reduced/supervised contact.

It's really all you can do. Would you rather be abused all the time with ineffective mitigation from your mother (as someone else characterised it, "dad hurts them and mum lets him") or be exposed to your abused only some of the time with a safe home to go back to and get help from a mother who is much more effective because she had her own home and is emotionally and financially separate from the abuser and can thus fight and advocate for you without fear for herself?

Give your children the best YOU can. You can't control him, you can't make up for him. You can only protect them from Jim as much as you can, and you'll do that much better away from him.

I agree with all the above.

Plus you left him before for 9 months, how regularly did he want contact with the children then? I think you said you got back together out of your choice as you felt lonely in lockdown?

It is entirely right that the only people in this situation without agency are the children. They rely on you to protect them

OP I'm an ENT surgeon, I remove button batteries from gullets, these things are lethal and utterly terrifying in terms of the rapid colossal damage they cause. A 3 year old died from an unwitnessed ingestion a few years ago, many more children suffer sub-lethal life altering injuries (think: tracheostomy for life etc). No, some freaking shampoo is not the same as button battery or anti freeze. Not even in the same league. And what you did once or twice in error, is not the same as failing to give the most basic of parenting sh*ts repeatedly.
Your children's lives are actively at risk. I suggest: get legal advice re: unsupervised access. Get evidence - get a friend to follow the car and record how long the children are left alone in it. Record the baby cam footage. Your 111 call and the concerns you raised with social services should also be useful evidence - ask a lawyer and get collecting. Time is ticking. And for heaven's sake don't let him take them in the car in warm weather at the very least.

I worked in ENT as a nurse for a really long time. I’ve seen the injuries @FalldereedilIdo described. They are horrific.

That's abhorrent and dangerous behaviour. He should be ashamed.

I hope the OP is organizing things to GTFO with the kids.

@Arthersleep

👏👏👏

I completely agree with you.

What an awful situation for you. I understand why you don't want to just leave and risk him having contact with the kids unsupervised. Can you document his behaviour? Maybe text him or similar detailing the issues in the hope that you can get evidence of his attitude. I agree with pps that you should try and involve as many agencies as possible to see if they can log your concerns. I was going to suggest social services but it sounds like you are already doing what you can with them, but if you can get evidence of his shitty approach to safety then do. I feel awful for you as you're really stuck between a rock and a hard place.