To thinking asking mothers educational level at booking appointment is shaming

[Ivybutterfly]

At my midwife booking appointment I was asked what age I left full time education. I remember the same question last time. They ask whether you have a degree or not. I found it rude and inappropriate. It is also irrelevant. I just sucked it up. My DH on the other hand was raging. He said it was shaming and disgusting. I agree. I think I am going to complain. Why so they ask such a rude question which has no relevance to pregnancy?

Facts aren't shameful... they didn't tell you not having a degree was terrible. They just asked if you had one or not. You're offended because you are projecting your insecurities on facts.

I think a lot of people on this thread are confusing a public health intervention with a standard health framework.
The results of public health studies are used to identify factors within a population that are more likely to lead to less positive outcomes, they do not underpin the treatment and care that EVERYONE is entitled to as standard, however, it helps identify the areas where ADDITIONAL funding, advice, education and support is needed.
The research and evidence then allow those in public health to access funding, usually via grants to help those that NEED it, once the funding is in place they can direct individuals who are identified by HCP's through a variety of criteria and training, this can include those in the at-risk categories as well as the outliers to the correct help.
Although mothers with lower levels of education are more likely to have children with less favourable outcomes, it does not mean they will, it also doesn't mean that having a degree, masters or PhD automatically prevents it either, it is simple a way of looking for trends and identifying problems and funding to help those who need it.
Is it perfect? No, but then again very few things in life are.
Personally, I am happy to answer a few questions at an appointment to facilitate this, however, I also do not think that a degree equals success or that a lack of one equals failure. The world is a big place and needs a variety of people, personalities and skills and maternal education is just one of many factors that data is collected for.

[quote WanderlustWitch]@Thentherewasyou so calling it anecdotal makes it irrelevant? Discredits my experience? Does that work the same when we're cheering on a cancer patient who survived when the majority don't then? Because surely that's anecdotal too and doesn't apply to the majority of patients! Surely when we gather data we take all experiences into consideration not just the majority. [/quote]
I don't understand your example re a cancer patient. Of course a patient who defied the odds would be cheered and celebrated, because it's wonderful and brilliant! That doesn't mean the odds are any less accurate for one person's outcome being different to the outcome of the high majority of cases. In what way does acknowledging that their experience is rare and not the norm for most patients discrediting them?

I must admit I didn't particularly see why it was relevant to ask about your education but I also wouldn't think too much on it or be too bothered either. I think there's a lot of truly awful things going on the world right now, and some things are just not worth over analysing. I would suspect the person asking had had no intention of offending you.

I wouldn't personally go to all the effort of making a formal complaint about it.

Totally agree with a precious poster that said this is reverse political correctness. If you cared about the people on who's behalf you feel angry, then you would want those mothers to be identified or flagged for extra support.

There will always be outliers, people's experiences that buck the trend but it is the general trend that matters in healthcare stats and is used to inform policies.

You seem to be getting angry for no good reason. If you are asked a question you don't want to answer, refuse, or question why they need to know.

I had my booking appt on Wednesday and I wasnt asked this! Although most of my appt was spent sitting there watching the midwife slowly hand write my answers from the form they'd gotten me to complete by hand onto another piece of paper (which they then gave back to me), so in honesty the whole thing seemed pretty pointless....

What a joke that dh's comment 😂.

@LolaSmiles

Thentherewasyou It's really silly isn't it? There is a worryingly poor understanding of population level data here.

It seems to be "but X happened to me so population level data is wrong" because they can't seem to fathom that population level data analysis already accepts there's outliers.

See also:
'my mum got drunk during all her pregnancies an none of us have any health issues' (so obviously advice on alcohol consumption is wrong)
'My mum smoked in all her pregnancies and there were no complications' (so obviously there's no reason to promote giving up smoking)
'My uncle swears by daily drinking and regular takeaways and he's doing just fine at 75' (so the advice on limiting alcohol consumption and the importance of a healthy diet is obviously wrong)
'Richard Branson didn't do well at school and he's just fine' (so obviously teachers and parents who say GCSEs matter are wrong)

It certainly highlights how there's people out there who've decided their ignorance and opinion in an area is by far superior than whole professions of people who have spent their lives working and researching an area.

Fantastic post of the day! Perfectly sums up most of Mumsnet.

@wanderlustwitch
You’re sort of proving my point

@curiouscat1987

I had my booking appt on Wednesday and I wasnt asked this! Although most of my appt was spent sitting there watching the midwife slowly hand write my answers from the form they'd gotten me to complete by hand onto another piece of paper (which they then gave back to me), so in honesty the whole thing seemed pretty pointless....

Well the midwife now knows you can read, understand questions and write....

People seem to be missing the point by talking about the statistical relevance of poor maternal and fetal outcomes caused by poor education.

The point is the mother should be informed these are statistical data collections and therefore do not impact on their direct care or the direct outcome of the pregnancy, and therefore should be voluntary.

It's about informed consent, and you are not being informed and not offered the choice to consent or refuse.

I'm sorry but your husband stropping is
more indicative of lower education levels than any question.

Yes it is important to know your level of education.

and therefore should be voluntary

It is. “I’d rather not answer that”. The OP has made several eye watering assumptions on behalf of women who are not her. The OP has also not minded explaining her level of education repeatedly.

There will have been other questions on the form that are in a similar vein - ethnicity and age are two examples. Both have population level impact on women and children’s outcomes (women from a BAME background are more likely to die as a result of pregnancy and childbirth/older women are more likely to have a number of pregnancy related illnesses)

Is the OP outraged about this also? I suspect not.

The MW have no interest. They collect data. It has been established for some time that maternal education impacts on early language and literacy in pre school children. The more education the more likely you engage with your pre schooler, and it is usually the mother. Hence asking you. This data predicts and targets where to set up initiatives for those families/children who are predicted as being most likely to need support for literacy. It is of no impact on you whatsoever. Therefore Yabu.

Ooh heaven help me. I meant more likely you engage in reading and literacy !! Not engage in general.

@Ivybutterfly

I worry for some poor working class mother who goes there alone and is made to feel worthless. I also find it condescending. People just assume that if you don’t have a degree you won’t breastfeed and will smoke and drink? That is shameful classism.

I was a teenage mother and I breastfed. I was regularly asked to attend the breast feeding clinics to try and encourage other young mother to breast feed. I didn't do it as I didn't have much confidence back then, however I now do regret that decision. I also went to college and university when my DD was small and I am now a professional. I would have been mortified if I'd been asked that question back then.

@SmileEachDay Regardless there should be informed consent to gather statistical data!

Its not a case of saying, just don't answer it. Without the relevant information and consent, women may feel obliged to answer, and be unaware it would not impact on their care.

I am outraged also by any question being asked which is not impacting the CARE during pregnancy. Fuck what it informs statisticians about long term outcomes. These questions are intrusive and unnecessary and they are being asked at a time when so many women feel vulnerable and unsure. How easy to make a young woman feel worthless and judged.

Having personally been reduced to tears by this kind of questioning I am 100% behind the OP