To thinking asking mothers educational level at booking appointment is shaming

[Ivybutterfly]

At my midwife booking appointment I was asked what age I left full time education. I remember the same question last time. They ask whether you have a degree or not. I found it rude and inappropriate. It is also irrelevant. I just sucked it up. My DH on the other hand was raging. He said it was shaming and disgusting. I agree. I think I am going to complain. Why so they ask such a rude question which has no relevance to pregnancy?

@HepLaurenceLB

Is it so they can work out if you are able to read and understand the written information that they give you.

"Are you able to read and understand the information we give you?"

Oh look, that works too.

@Mylittlepony374

It's relevant. Higher educated= less risk of preterm birth, low birth weight and other things I can't remember. They're not asking to shame you, they're asking to ensure they provide best care for you and baby.

Utter nonsense, I have a degree and various other professional qualifications, 2 of my children had a low birth weight.

Utter nonsense, I have a degree and various other professional qualifications, 2 of my children had a low birth weight

Oh for fucks sake.

Population data. Population. More or less likely. Not you will or won’t be.

Your personal circumstances do not change the statistics. Education means you were less likely to have low birth weight children, not that you wouldn’t have low birth weight children.

Like cv. If you have COPD you are more likely to need intensive care. Just because you Mum has COPD and was fine doesn't change the population data. Just because my dd got mumps even though vaccinated doesn’t change the data that vaccination means you are vastly less likely to catch the disease.

Anecdote is not data!!

@GalaxyCookieCrumble, (sigh), as has been pointed out many times on this thread, one individual's personal anecdotal 'evidence' does not negate the statistics at a population level. It amazes me that people who claim to have a degree etc have not yet grasped this basic concept.

But @GalaxyCookieCrumble, can’t you understand that your individual experience does not invalidate the general data set?

I have a DPhil and wasn’t able to breastfeed at all — tried everything for weeks, and got advice from all possible quarters, but my supply never established at all — so despite the general trend that higher maternal educational levels correlate to higher BF rates, that wasn’t my experience. But there is a general correlation. My experience doesn’t mean there isn’t.

It's all very well saying that anecdote doesn't equal data, but HCP are dealing with individuals, not the population as a whole. How that individual feels about their care and the approaches used by their midwife or HV will have a massive impact on that woman's outcomes.

Oh dear, this thread is becoming the maternity version of 'well my dad smokes 60 a day and doesn't exercise and he's still going at 80, but his mate Pete who didn't smoke and exercised regularly had a heart attack at 55'.

It's the same school of thought as people challenging the idea that working towards a good set of GCSEs matters because 'my dad doesn't have GCSEs and he has a decent job... and Richard Branson/Alan Sugar didn't get their GCSEs either so they're just a bit of paper that nobody cares about'.

It will just be them collecting research data I imagine, but you won't have to answer.

They are saying that because individual experience matters, particularly in the relationship a patient forms with HCP, at the most vulnerable time of their life.
I don't think anyone is saying that this information isn't important, only that the way it's gathered has the potential to make people feel inferior or guilty if something goes wrong in the pregnancy.
I'd love to think that all HCP are sensitive and non judgemental, but that hasn't been my experience. I remember being 22 and in the early days of an unplanned pregnancy. I was still finishing my PGCE, so still at uni. I had stomach cramps and fainted so my friends took me to A&E and I still remember the doctor asking me why I was so upset, since it wasn't a planned Pg. My son is 23 years old now but that stuck with me because I was vulnerable and hormonal. Sad to say I've also had negative experience of HV when I was older, more experienced and not lacking confidence at all. She criticised my house for being too tidy as apparently that's a flag for something. I don't know what - maybe that my baby was asleep and my kids were at school? But it made me feel judged. Equally when she insisted on meeting my older DC - presumably to check I wasn't keeping them in a dungeon? Now I know these are important checks and I'd rather feel judged than have a child slip through the net, but there's a lot to be said for diplomatic approaches to people and I don't trust that all HCP have the ability to do that.

Really interesting thread- thanks everyone who has explained the reasons behind the question.
I agree too that the attitude of HCP matters greatly.

Is it true that research shows that for fathers it's not educational attainment that matters most for positive outcomes but income bracket, whereas for mothers educational attainment is more significant? Again, speaking about population, not individuals.

Isn't it more that your DH was offended that it wasn't absolutely obvious to the staff that you are MC?

So it was his snobbery overruling any vague sensibilities of logic or understanding of research.

@LolaSmiles you’ve hit the nail on the head!! It’s amazing how few understand their own experience does not prove or disprove a tested hypothesis. Personally I always like to respond to questions like this. It’s important to help those researching or thinking about designing policy.

Totally agree with you OP.

The issue is they don't tell you these questions are for statistical purposes, so you have no idea you can refuse to answer.

This reminds me of the birth of first DC. The birth had been horrendous with emergency c section, baby crying constantly, no sleep, difficult bfing, and I was exhausted.

Someone came round from the registrars office to register baby. She went though this huge list of endless questions. When she asked the date of my marriage I just went blank and apologised. She then looked at me as if I was scum, and said, for heavens sake, sighed and rolled her eyes at me. I hobbled back to my room and howled for an hour. Only after did I learn none of this was necessary and this was statistics gathering.

Complain OP. This is a disgraceful intrusion into your privacy. If they ask these questions and they are not relevant to the pregnancy, you should be given the option to answer. I am still raging at this bitch who questioned me years later.

@Mylittlepony374 That is rubbish. It may be a statistical fact that education is a factor on a wider level, but it is most certainly not something that would inform a midwife to put a woman into a high risk category.

"Are you able to read and understand the information we give you?"
Oh look, that works too.

Would that be seen as less rude and intrusive? Would it get the same information as asking education level?

If when I had my first, I had been asked if I could read and understand the information, I would have said yes. Absolutely. I remember when I was very slowly asked if I knew what immunizations were for thinking 'I'm an immigrant, not an idiot doctor' and snapped 'of course'. I, and my child, could have used someone who wasn't patronizing, but still spoke about the risks in a way I could understand as I was overwhelmed by a lot of scaremongering that was going on at the time even if I didn't want to admit it. I wasn't less intelligent, I was a 19 year old with little experience of reading medical jargon and little experienced support that wasn't riling me up with scare stories (being told my sister got very ill when she had that jab but no further details was awful for my mental health, my mother loved to do shit like that).

If I had been asked my education level at the time, I'd have said I finished high school with a few college classes.

If I'd been asked if I had GCSEs or A-levels, I would have said no, because I didn't immigrate until I was 17, but that I did finish high school in the US.

Those all give a different picture. It is important to look into how these things are asked, part of looking at this data is seeing which areas are marginalized groups struggling in more so and which they're not to explore best and harmful practices. Sometimes these questions are asked in a terrible way, the list off of questions eases some but can rile others. It's an area that needs work.

I'm reminded of years back when there was a study in breastfeeding in a working class area that involved vouchers and regular medical visits to see if that would improve rates, and so many were quick to call that offensive and rude to do that kind of research (and were really insulting to the mothers involved with a lot of 'I handexpressed into tubes to feed mine while working with no help and if they can't do it, then they must not really care about breastfeeding' and 'they're just in it for the money'). There is a lot going on to improve things, but it's difficult with how research works and how whenever there are attempts that get any media attention, people are quick to judge both the researchers involved and the parents who take part. Some just want to assume the worst, some are just more sensitive on certain topics so these stand out more, and some just like riling people up.

[quote Mmn654123]@WanderlustWitch
I disagree. Just because on average something is true it doesn’t negate your ability to be an ‘outlier’. My mum never went to university and we were raised pre-internet in a poor area. Because, like you, she was very adept at acquiring the knowledge needed to protect her children she did - and other neighbouring mums tended to come to her for help as a result. It doesn’t change the fact that on average the children of less educated women have worse birth and life outcomes. That’s why it’s important to build resilience in children and make them believe they can do anything and some parents manage to do that. But the average parent doesn’t.[/quote]
My children are all under 20, youngest being 10. Single parent with no family close. Having a degree wouldn't have made any difference to my parenting. That's my point. I know many very well educated people through my line of work, and their babies aren't magically healthier than mine!

Yeah there is special department that employes people to ask questions for the fun of it, they have nothing better to do and just come up with questions for the sole purpose of annoying people

Wow. So many people @ me for stating there is a statistical link between maternal education and likelihood of preterm birth / low birth weight.
It's a fact.
I know it doesn't apply to everyone. I know it's not a reason to put someone in a high risk category as such. It information that adds to a picture of overall care. That's all.
My sister dies not have education after high school- 2 babies, no preterm. I have 2 degrees and one premature baby. Our personal experiences do not negate the statistics.
I also agree that it's important these types of questions are asked in a way that maintains the relationship between mother and midwife.
I also think it's important that women understand you can say no. You don't have to answer any question you feel uncomfortable with.
I also think it's important we have these statistics. It helps (on a population level) to tailor healthcare appropriately and, when there's limited resources, target them where they are most needed.

They are very firm. And they don’t say it is for statistics. Why is it relevant what educational level a mother has? They don’t ask if you go in for other kinds of treatments

Unfortunately, the educational level of the mother is very relevant to a child's development, mental and physical, also child's ongoing health.

It will be recorded on the child health notes, which is why you're not asked for it anywhere else.

@WanderlustWitch thank you for more anecdotal stories that are irrelevant.

My own family grew up on a small farm and were very poor with parents who had to scrimp for every penny. However all 6 of us children got excellent results in school and went on to top universities and are now all educated to between masters - PhD level.

Based on my anecdotal experience and how my friends family were similar all supports for helping those less well off the school and university should be cancelled.

Oh wait - they don’t make policies based on ‘well my friend knows’ ‘in my house’ situations. They do actual research on large swathes of the population instead.... which have shown that women with less education tend to have children with lower birth weight and other associated issues. You might not like this, it might not fit your own personal situation but it doesn’t mean it’s not a very real and proven issue.

My dd had the MMR. She got mumps.

Therefore this means the data showing MMR prevents mumps is wrong.

Because my dd got mumps despite vaccination, Vaccines do not work.

Do you see how your individual circumstances do not change statistical outcomes?

@Thentherewasyou so calling it anecdotal makes it irrelevant? Discredits my experience? Does that work the same when we're cheering on a cancer patient who survived when the majority don't then? Because surely that's anecdotal too and doesn't apply to the majority of patients! Surely when we gather data we take all experiences into consideration not just the majority.

Thentherewasyou
It's really silly isn't it?
There is a worryingly poor understanding of population level data here.

It seems to be "but X happened to me so population level data is wrong" because they can't seem to fathom that population level data analysis already accepts there's outliers.

See also:
'my mum got drunk during all her pregnancies an none of us have any health issues' (so obviously advice on alcohol consumption is wrong)
'My mum smoked in all her pregnancies and there were no complications' (so obviously there's no reason to promote giving up smoking)
'My uncle swears by daily drinking and regular takeaways and he's doing just fine at 75' (so the advice on limiting alcohol consumption and the importance of a healthy diet is obviously wrong)
'Richard Branson didn't do well at school and he's just fine' (so obviously teachers and parents who say GCSEs matter are wrong)

It certainly highlights how there's people out there who've decided their ignorance and opinion in an area is by far superior than whole professions of people who have spent their lives working and researching an area.

It is statistical data. Don’t answer if you don’t want to

It’s only shaming if you are ashamed of yourself about when you left education. You do realise not having degrees or specific A levels or GCSE grades means you’re successful in life or not or about your intelligence. There’s plenty of examples out in the world. You might want to focus on why such a simple question as that causes such a strong reaction.

@WanderlustWitch *
@Thentherewasyou so calling it anecdotal makes it irrelevant? Discredits my experience? Does that work the same when we're cheering on a cancer patient who survived when the majority don't then? Because surely that's anecdotal too and doesn't apply to the majority of patients!*

Errr well yes it does mean it’s irrelevant... your cancer example in terms of policy means that because ONE person survived cancer we therefore shouldn’t do any kind of treatments for others with cancer as that one person survived... which makes absolutely no sense....