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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To thinking asking mothers educational level at booking appointment is shaming

567 replies

Ivybutterfly · 12/11/2020 16:28

At my midwife booking appointment I was asked what age I left full time education. I remember the same question last time. They ask whether you have a degree or not. I found it rude and inappropriate. It is also irrelevant. I just sucked it up. My DH on the other hand was raging. He said it was shaming and disgusting. I agree. I think I am going to complain. Why so they ask such a rude question which has no relevance to pregnancy?

OP posts:
HerFlowersToLove · 12/11/2020 20:25

@flaviaritt

CovidAnni

Thanks.

It’s still intrusive, IMO. They should make it clear why they want the information, and certainly not request it unless it will actually trigger additional support.

But they aren't asking it to trigger additional support, they are asking it as part of gaining a wider understanding of what impacts maternal and infant deaths, breastfeeding levels etc. If you look up the Index of Multiple Deprivation, you'll find all sorts of data is collected.
OhShutIt · 12/11/2020 20:27

Until they start exploring the role of bias honestly and openly, the efficacy in the actions decided as a result of this data will be limited.

Similar to the role of bias in the differential maternal outcomes for black women, it needs to be considered whether assumptions around class and education results in differential treatment of women considered less educated and therefore intelligent.

Again, many young mothers report negative experiences with maternal staff. Age in no way correlates with your ability to parent.

Single parenthood is another frowned upon characteristic.

Perceptions and bias also need to be explored so I would agree that without a 360 investigation, collection of such data should be reveiewd.

Hopeisnotastrategy · 12/11/2020 20:28

[quote mynameiscalypso]@Hopeisnotastrategy No because as has been pointed out, it's not relevant to childhood outcomes unlike maternal education level[/quote]
Thanks for patronising me. I (with a postgraduate degree so no snippiness there) beg to differ thanks.

3ismylot · 12/11/2020 20:29

I'm actually shocked at some of the ignorance about how public health is monitored on this thread.

It's very easy to say that they should only raise topics with those who actually need it, but the whole point is that this kind of data collection identifies just who does need it!

tealcheese · 12/11/2020 20:31

Why is it shaming?

I was asked my education level, job title, partners job title at my booking appointment. I didn't find it rude or irrelevant.

I'm sure it is asked for a mixture of things, IMO off the top of my head: statistics, so they have a little info about you (incase it becomes relevant), so they know if you are capable of understanding the care you are being given, as PP have said there are some studies that have shown a correlation between birthweight or pre term delivery and education level (please don't ask me to quote) and also maybe they ask as part of safeguarding to try and identify if you need additional support.

They also ask about past mental health issues, weight and if you've had an abortion. Is this shaming also?

MyGazeboisLeaking · 12/11/2020 20:34

@MrsPotatoHeadsSheeWee

FFS OP, you and your DH are sickening snobs.

The question is asked to identify and help the most vulnerable women and families. It wasn't asked in my area and a young woman (girl, actually) slipped through the net and was given leaflets about how to feed her baby, amongst other things.

She couldn't read and did not know how to safely prepare milk for her baby, leading to problems for the child. She didn't know who or where to get help for anything. She couldn't seek help for the DV she experienced, which lead to her murder.

She was totally failed by leaflets WHICH SHE COULD NOT READ.

When I came to my booking in appointment, possibly in the same room she sat in years earlier, I was asked how many years education I had completed. Not whether I had a degree.

You and your uber educated husband should be thanking the universe for your privilege and thinking about how people less privileged get help.

I feel angry that you can't appreciate this.

That's a terrible sorry, but do you not think that that's a failing of the booking in system staff, that they asked a pregnant woman to fill in forms / sign documents and failed to notice that she couldn't read?

EmilySpinach · 12/11/2020 20:36

Well I was forced into replying. I made it obvious I did not want to

Let me check I’ve understood. You politely but firmly said ‘I would prefer not to answer that question’, more than once if necessary, and the midwife did... what? Got you into a half-nelson? Threatened to withhold care?

3ismylot · 12/11/2020 20:37

For those saying maternal education and low birth weight are not linked
This is from a longitudinal study published in May this year, it shows that the problem is slowly decreasing but still an inequality for lower educated mothers.

The main finding was that differences in mean birth weight between the two extremes of maternal educational attainment decreased over time. There was a significant decrease in mean BW in neonates born to mothers with higher educational attainment, and a slight increase in those born to mothers with lower educational attainment.

BiBabbles · 12/11/2020 20:40

Absolutely OhShutIt. Yes, part of it is helping people not slip through the care net, but part of monitoring these types of demographics and the differences between them is considering how health care professionals treat people of these groups and the assholes who slip through the net too. It's not as deeply studied yet, but it's an important area for this type of data as well.

Tenyearsgone · 12/11/2020 20:40

Not having a degree doesn't mean you can't read ffs.

Chicchicchicchiclana · 12/11/2020 20:42

I think this is terribly intrusive. You are an individual, a person, not there to provide data for harvesting. You don't have to answer questions like that, much as you don't have to answer questions about your ethnicity or sexuality if you choose not to.

june2007 · 12/11/2020 20:42

But if you have a degree level education you are likely to be able to read. If you say you have no qualifications, perhaps thats because you struggled with the three R,s and were not given the help.

MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously · 12/11/2020 20:42

I agree with the OP. By linking children's outcomes to the mother's educational attainment at a medical appointment, it makes women without a degree feel like they are failing as mothers, before their baby is even born.
Statistics are just showing trends - they mean nothing to the individual woman and her specific pregnancy. It's just enabling the HCP to hold preconceived judgements before they know anything about the woman.
Better to focus on the health conditions/lifestyle of the specific patient, if they want to positively influence outcome.

ImaSababa · 12/11/2020 20:43

By linking children's outcomes to the mother's educational attainment at a medical appointment, it makes women without a degree feel like they are failing as mothers, before their baby is even born.

But there IS a link. Are people not reading the research that's been linked?

Head/desk.

Tenyearsgone · 12/11/2020 20:43

@june2007

But if you have a degree level education you are likely to be able to read. If you say you have no qualifications, perhaps thats because you struggled with the three R,s and were not given the help.
There are a million and one reasons why some woman don't have a degree. Not being able to read and write is not the only reason.
june2007 · 12/11/2020 20:44

EDucation is actually linked to health and lifestyle. If you have no qualifications you are mor likely to have a poor payed job more likely to not have your own home ect ect.

Tenyearsgone · 12/11/2020 20:44

@ImaSababa

By linking children's outcomes to the mother's educational attainment at a medical appointment, it makes women without a degree feel like they are failing as mothers, before their baby is even born.

But there IS a link. Are people not reading the research that's been linked?

Head/desk.

So you think they are failures?
Graphista · 12/11/2020 20:45

It is also irrelevant it’s far from irrelevant!

It’s relevant because parents especially mothers’ education level has been proven to have an impact on pregnancy outcomes and early years development for children in a variety of ways.

Generally speaking one area is the lower education level the lower earning/income level. It gives them an idea if you may have difficulties financially.

Though I personally think it’d probably make more sense to just ask you to tick an income bracket but people would be even MORE resistant to that as people hate discussing money in Uk especially.

Another is low birth weight and premature birth - more likely in mothers of lower educational attainment.

It’s also relevant as it gives the midwife a rough idea of what level and how to pitch information to you. Although arguably it could be always presented at the most basic level but then people would complain about them being patronising and condescending, or just “switch off” and not retain the info.

I find that offensive if true. My children are in single figures and they can read.

Functional illiteracy in the Uk is around 17% in Uk adults and there is a wide range in literacy levels where someone may be classed as literate but have a fairly poor command of especially written English.

There are also issues regarding the type of language used to communicate certain guidance to differing demographics.

You seem to have a bit of a chip on your shoulder about this op.

Yes there is a difference between general intelligence and academic ability and attainment.

While I hold 2 degrees myself I have friends and family who are very intelligent, well read and well informed people who left school under the age of 16 without any formal qualifications.

Equally I know people with degrees who apparently can barely bloody spell and communicate pretty poorly and are very ill informed outside their sphere of expertise or interest as they choose to be narrow minded.

BUT generally speaking yes people with a higher education are more aware of and understanding of a wider variety of ideas and knowledge.

Can you provide a source for this?

If you simply google

“Impact of maternal education level on pregnancy and birth outcomes” you’ll get loads of hits!

https://core.ac.uk/reader/6250060

Here’s a slightly more recent one

https://jech.bmj.com/content/69/9/826

But honestly there are loads!

As a sort of aside if you’re this sensitive this early on in your parenting experience I suspect you’re in for a rude awakening!

You will be judged and assessed based on a number of criteria some of which will be prejudicial whatever you do and say as a mother. Best you start getting used to it!

And I agree your own prejudices are showing too!

I’m working class as is my brother who’s even more qualified he’s currently working on a 2nd masters.

A degree educates you in a certain subject. The world is full of educated idiots. you’re really swerving into a different debate there. A good uni and good educators will ensure students not only learn the subject but also it’s real world applications and encourage them to broaden their horizons generally, perhaps by using the subject as a basis but really they should be encouraging their students to read and learn widely and to continue doing so after uni.

With the level of education you and the father claim to have surely a little research would be something you could easily do and you could have fairly quickly found, read and understood the relevant studies?

Actual medical questions are fine. This IS it has real world medical relevance!

And actions ARE occurring regarding improving people’s educational attainment. I’m 48 I left school at 16 following GCSEs, that was fairly normal for my class and region at that time. I worked and after first few months working fully realised getting a-levels would make a major difference in the job market and went to evening classes to get them. Worked a few more years in slightly better jobs and then went to uni for the first time as a mature student, nursing and then worked as a nurse for several years but ultimately found it wasn’t the right career for me for a variety of reasons, plus I was a trailing spouse at this point so having to take whatever work I could get. Split from ex, then a wee bit after that went back to uni to retrain.

My parents left school at 14, my grandparents well they all left at or before 14 too.

My dd also left school at 16 but for her it was a HUGE deal and far from the norm (complicated reasons but basically school massively let her down in final year) most of her friends stayed on until 18, and a significant number of them went straight to uni - even though this is a very deprived area and the vast majority are from working class and even plain poor backgrounds.

Dd worked for a few years, certain things changed for her and motivated her to return to education and that’s where she is now away studying.

Various govts over the last century have made changes that mean that most Uk school children now stay on until 18 and a significantly higher number now are able to go to uni. It’s not perfect yet far from and in some ways we’re regressing but generally speaking yes, people are staying in education longer

And now op has seemingly flounced!

Goodness help them if they ever experience ACTUAL prejudice

june2007 · 12/11/2020 20:45

Again do you get corelation and causation? Do you understand risk?

SentientAndCognisant · 12/11/2020 20:45

There is an established and irrefutable link between education attainment , LBW , and mode of feeding
Quite simply,it’s asked because it’s established marker for outcomes

Scottishskifun · 12/11/2020 20:46

It's to highlight risks as pointed out.

I'm surprised that they let your husband to a booking in appointment it's not allowed in my health board mainly as they ask a load of questions on domestic violence, feeling safe, anxiety in the home etc etc.

To me these are the important questions but definitely took me aback!
I don't think they ask it for the sake of it it is for a reason maybe next time discuss why it is required if your not comfortable with something.

I did this when I refused sweeps by my midwife this time she was taken aback when I said no sweeps!

june2007 · 12/11/2020 20:46

The above is aimed at tenyears gone.

echt · 12/11/2020 20:46

The question is asked to identify and help the most vulnerable women and families. It wasn't asked in my area and a young woman (girl, actually) slipped through the net and was given leaflets about how to feed her baby, amongst other things. She couldn't read and did not know how to safely prepare milk for her baby, leading to problems for the child. She didn't know who or where to get help for anything. She couldn't seek help for the DV she experienced, which lead to her murder.
She was totally failed by leaflets WHICH SHE COULD NOT READ

That's a terrible sorry, but do you not think that that's a failing of the booking in system staff, that they asked a pregnant woman to fill in forms / sign documents and failed to notice that she couldn't read?

Such is the shame attached to not being literate that many go to extraordinary lengths to conceal it. I'd like to link to an article but there all behind paywalls.

This sort of addresses it:

hummingbirdlearning.com/recognise-someone-hiding-learning-difficulty/

I remember years ago news article about a man who'd been postie for years and it was only discovered much later he couldn't read. He didn't misdeliver letters, looked at the shape of words and numbers and, of course, he had a round he was familiar with.

The there was the postie who dumped letters because he couldn't read the directions.

It's very sad indeed.

LolaSmiles · 12/11/2020 20:47

I agree with the OP. By linking children's outcomes to the mother's educational attainment at a medical appointment, it makes women without a degree feel like they are failing as mothers, before their baby is even born
Yet another person missing the point.
I do hope you and the OP are ready to complain to relevant public health bodies and research institutions to let them know your wisdom on this topic.
I'm sure they'll be delighted to have your insights.

3ismylot · 12/11/2020 20:47

@MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously

I agree with the OP. By linking children's outcomes to the mother's educational attainment at a medical appointment, it makes women without a degree feel like they are failing as mothers, before their baby is even born. Statistics are just showing trends - they mean nothing to the individual woman and her specific pregnancy. It's just enabling the HCP to hold preconceived judgements before they know anything about the woman. Better to focus on the health conditions/lifestyle of the specific patient, if they want to positively influence outcome.
They link the outcome to educational attainment as the evidence suggests that it can be a factor in child morbidity and mortality rates and they then monitor those that fall into an at-risk category. They do not suddenly change the antenatal care and refer to SS just because the mother doesn't have a degree! However, if the local population shows a trend of higher risk they will increase public funding and health initiatives to help those children regain some equality after Birth and during childhood