To thinking asking mothers educational level at booking appointment is shaming

[Ivybutterfly]

At my midwife booking appointment I was asked what age I left full time education. I remember the same question last time. They ask whether you have a degree or not. I found it rude and inappropriate. It is also irrelevant. I just sucked it up. My DH on the other hand was raging. He said it was shaming and disgusting. I agree. I think I am going to complain. Why so they ask such a rude question which has no relevance to pregnancy?

@SentientAndCognisant thanks. Still a bit puzzled as to why op and her well educated dh/dp (I forget which) are apparently unable to do so themselves given practically the first bloody thing you're taught at uni is how to research!

I'm another who wasn't required to read or write anything at booking in appointment and could easily have disguised any illiteracy, at a subsequent appointment I was though and that's when my being in need of glasses came to light which I of course had forgotten!

But then ime that's an excuse I've come across many illiterate people using - claiming they've forgotten glasses and that's why they can't read at that moment in time.

People don’t learn to read at university

Depends on definition of "read" there's the more widely understood definition of being able to recognise and verbalise and understand the basic definitions of commonly used words and then there's the definition which is more commonly described as comprehension but at an advanced level so meaning the person can "read" a piece of highly detailed and complex research and understand it.

Hence all those appearing on uni challenge back in the day (they don't seem to do this as much now) saying "I'm John doe and I'm reading physics at St. Andrews" etc

My 1st day at uni one student commented after the very 1st seminar, which was really just a meeting to provide basics and get to know people, "this reading list is HUGE I don't even like reading that much anyway" - which made the lecturer whiplash around with a type look - specifically why? The course was literature based!

Long winded - my point being it's going to be overwhelming and rather pointless to give or suggest as source material to someone with a reading comprehension level at roughly gcse level a detailed article aimed at medical professionals, but a pregnant medical professional may well ask for and be provided/suggested such resources.

I must admit I'm a bit bemused by posters who are apparently midwives saying they pay no heed to the info!

I was just on another thread where the op is a pregnant woman who's never as much as held a baby and she's very nervous and seeking sources for guidance and I've advised one thing she could do is ask her midwife - well if the midwife doesn't know her rough reading and comprehension ability they may well recommend something unsuitable?

Women with high educational standards have better health across the board because they are able to research better. This in turn enables them to ask the right questions or identify problems that HCPs may have missed. They are also better placed in terms of their own advocacy as a result of this. They tend to be more confident in challenging what they are told and are able to push for better treatment if they feel the care they have is substandard or not appropriate or to come up with alternatives. They also tend to be treated better to begin with because of the way they talk and the language they use. There are also unconscious bias that are contained in there and indeed prejudices from HCPs.

When it comes to maternity this tends to be even more important because of how ideology comes in - and old wives tales.

So education is relevant in a number of ways. Its not just about the ability to read a leaflet. Its about underlying health before getting pregnant. Its about how suseptable someone is to 'but my gran told me'. Its about how likely someone is to speak up if they are worried about something. Its about how education tends to reflect more stable long term relationships and whether they will have a solid partner able to give support. Its about how economically vulnerable someone might be. Its a whole load of things that you won't necessarily immediately think of or consider.

Its not because these women are simply 'more clever'.

Why are we acting like degrees are really hard to come by?! And that it isn’t the norm now that the university route is pushed on school leavers over anything else. The fact you’ve gone from, ‘I wasn’t too bothered’, to my ‘husband was raging’ to ‘I’m a feminist’ is just bizarre. You have the right not to answer, why anyone wouldn’t answer or just ask for more information on the question is beyond me. The problem here is you and your partner; you can’t constantly proclaim to be working class and then speak about what a brilliant salary you earn, the home you own and the degrees you both have. You’re middle class, stop trying to be concerned with ‘poor working class women’ being offended when quite frankly, they probably don’t give a shit.

@RedToothBrush

Women with high educational standards have better health across the board because they are able to research better. This in turn enables them to ask the right questions or identify problems that HCPs may have missed. They are also better placed in terms of their own advocacy as a result of this. They tend to be more confident in challenging what they are told and are able to push for better treatment if they feel the care they have is substandard or not appropriate or to come up with alternatives. They also tend to be treated better to begin with because of the way they talk and the language they use. There are also unconscious bias that are contained in there and indeed prejudices from HCPs.

When it comes to maternity this tends to be even more important because of how ideology comes in - and old wives tales.

So education is relevant in a number of ways. Its not just about the ability to read a leaflet. Its about underlying health before getting pregnant. Its about how suseptable someone is to 'but my gran told me'. Its about how likely someone is to speak up if they are worried about something. Its about how education tends to reflect more stable long term relationships and whether they will have a solid partner able to give support. Its about how economically vulnerable someone might be. Its a whole load of things that you won't necessarily immediately think of or consider.

Its not because these women are simply 'more clever'.

Disagree. Earlier in the thread I stated I left school at 15 and gave manager to raise 3 children mostly alone. I don't have a degree but I take my children's health very seriously, I know how to research (part of my job for starters), and I understand what questions to ask HCP in order to obtain the correct care for my children. I think you do countless women a disservice with your statement and are making huge assumptions of those of us who didn't pursue university.

• have managed not 'gave manager' must remember to wear my glasses when I post late at night so as to avoid ridiculous autocorrect!!

@justchecking1

There's a fair few studies that show poorer maternal and child outcomes for women with fewer years of education.

It's part of their early screening programme to identify women who are at higher risk of less favourable outcomes.

Like others have said, you don't have to answer, but it's definitely not a shaming tactic!

This!

YABU and ridiculous, as is your partner, multiple degrees or not.

Once again doesn’t matter if ONE person without a degree managed to do XYZ. This is POPULATION level results not at an individual level.

Disagree. Earlier in the thread I stated I left school at 15 and gave manager to raise 3 children mostly alone. I don't have a degree but I take my children's health very seriously, I know how to research (part of my job for starters), and I understand what questions to ask HCP in order to obtain the correct care for my children. I think you do countless women a disservice with your statement and are making huge assumptions of those of us who didn't pursue university.

Again, anecdote is not data.

Stats like these are population based. So in the whole population generally lower education = poorer outcome.

It does not mean everyone with a low education has a poor outcome, or vice versa.

My child had the MMR. She got mumps last year. This does not mean the MMR vaccine doesn’t work.

It’s averages. If you have a degree you are likely to be a higher earner. It does not mean everyone with a degree is on a higher wage than those without.

Population data is less likely or more likely. Not an absolute you will or you won’t.

@burritofan

It’s condescending to assume someone without a degree would feel worthless being asked the question (also condescending to say “some poor working class mother”). It’s also condescending to assume that degrees don’t cross class lines. No assumptions are being made about the correlations between education level and outcomes, they’re statistically relevant.

Completely agree!

@electronVolt

ThiS Thread is making me quite cross

I do a lot of work with statistics in my job, trying to get better outcomes for people in certain situations. ,My colleagues are always on the hunt for any commonality in a poor outcome, so we can target intervention to those who need it most. And yes, it is often poorer people, those less well educated, or a minority group.

We do this because it’s our job and we fucking care. A lot.

There’s something really irritating about an educated person moaning about hurt feelings because f a monitoring question. YOURE alright jack, fuck those other mothers. Let’s not bother to collect data to see if any groups DO have poorer outcomes.

Indeed!! Just like people who moan about health visitor because they don’t feel they need one. Nevermind the thousands of families who benefit from the service.

I give up. Not everything is about logic, statistics and fact.
I know it's not, but claiming a question about maternal education is irrelevant is a matter of fact and logic.

There's a huge and obvious difference between 'I didn't like a question and felt it rude and intrusive' (reasonable) and 'I didn't like a question, my husband was furious and so we have decided it's irrelevant anyway '

The fact you’ve gone from, ‘I wasn’t too bothered’, to my ‘husband was raging’ to ‘I’m a feminist’ is just bizarre.
Well said
If it was a genuine concern for how some women might feel then the thread would be 'I don't understand why I was asked this question (people explain), ok is there a better way to get this information as I wonder if some women might feel uncomfortable'.

Instead it's 'why are they asking irrelevant questions, it's rude and intrusive, my husband was raging, we have millions of degrees but poor working class women would probably feel ashamed... you're all mean academics who want to hold people back and Mumsnet is a cesspool... I'm just being feminist'

Agree with PP. Having kids opens your eyes to the institutional bias and 1+1=2 assumption making in the NHS. We have encountered sexism and classism mostly, and we don't have much to complain about as citizens in wider society. I feel sorry for service users who encounter additional prejudices in healthcare, it must be so frustrating.

@PiccalilliChilli

Well said.

This country is class obsessed and that transcends ‘research’ by the NHS.

Is it class obsessed to analyse maternity outcomes on a population level in order to inform policy and programmes of support?

By that logic we shouldn't identify the outcomes of disadvantaged students using the (admittedly imperfect) measure of PP criteria. After all, it's so class obsessed to analyse educational outcome and try to improve education to address that attainment gap. It's got to be much better not to ask the questions because if we don't talk about it maybe the inequality will simply go away.

If its class obsessed to think about educational attainment then we would expect research in other countries not to also record educational level because class obsession is a particularly british trait.

Oh wait...

Defending this is ridiculous. Not once did any body check back to see how my children were doing. If your children needed help, was that information fed back in to the same database? No.

This whole thing is reverse political correctness which loses sight of the original intent of political correctness and thinks only about virtue signalling how politically correct someone is. It works to the advantage and short sightedness of those who are privileged.

It goes, "this is offensive to try and use criteria to identify people who are vulnerable", forgetting that if you dont identify vulnerable people they then become invisible both on paper and in practice.

Regardless of school rating there is an attainment gap between advantaged and disadvantaged students. We can either acknowledge this is a problem and try to do something about it or we shrug our shoulders and tell ourselves that kids with more money are just naturally better academically.
Of course on mumsnet discussing educational inequality would be class obsessed (stupid term) because acknowledging population level data is a terrible thing to do. If we don't talk about population level trends will they just disappear (like Trump and his covid logic: the only reason the US had high cases was because people tested more, stop the tested and obviously the cases wouldn't be there)

What exactly would you propose we do in light of quite glaring educational inequality?

It goes, "this is offensive to try and use criteria to identify people who are vulnerable", forgetting that if you dont identify vulnerable people they then become invisible both on paper and in practice
I agree with you.

I misread your last post. Sorry

@alexdgr8

many people from poorer countries have had no chance to stay on in school beyond 14. they may have been assisting at home births, and deaths, and rearing babies from a young age. they are quite likely to know more and be a safer more practical mother than someone with a doctorate in astro-physics or early mongolian music. i know several such people. and i would trust them with the care of any vulnerable person, baby or elder, whom i loved.

Hmmm...funny that doesn’t translate into low mortality rates in under 5s in e.g Nigeria. It has one of the highest rates in the world alongside a host of other African countries. You know this country also has one of the highest rates of illiteracy in girls in particular which correlated with its high mortality rates. Funny that.

If your children needed help, was that information fed back in to the same database? No.

Not exactly, but sometimes if you choose to participate in research (say a university is doing some research about SEN/attainment etc at your child's school) then they can sometimes link to other databases such as DWP or NHS data (with your informed consent and after gaining ethical approval).

I don't find those questions offensive at all. Some of them aren't "nice" but they're necessary- and different questions will be relevant to different people. You can't always tell who just by looking and I can understand why they have to ask and why they need to ask everyone. The NHS serves all comers and uses statistics to do so and help create and shape policy- in order to better serve over time. I know that my individual answers may inform how I'm treated but will also help to build a picture of the population.

What I can completely understand- as mentioned by Pps, too, is why people are offended by HOW questions are asked or how they are treated by those asking. I've had awful attitude from a GP- it needn't have happened, I still don't understand why it did. The NHS needs this feedback, too. Plenty of MNers keeping PALS busy - especially with complaints about maternity care, it seems. Someone upthread mentioned "uneducated mothers" based on recorded levels of education and this is exactly the sort of thing that puts backs up. Even if someone accepts they don't have the best education, to be labelled as "uneducated" by the NHS - to know that someone somewhere has purposely picked this wording- might not make you feel good about yourself. I think we all understand, accept and expect HCP using data to inform approaches and categorize patients for better outcomes. Doesn't mean the labels in question can't hurt. Language used does change over time because people complain and attitudes shift.

Similarly, understanding the difference between correlation and causation- whether you actually do so or not- goes out the window when a Dr with poor manner, no empathy and no understanding of how to wield this precious data says something that implies- intentionally or not- that only having a-levels is the reason your baby arrived at 31 weeks. Looking back with hindsight, from a better, calmer place does not temper how utterly shit that sort of statistic could make you feel in the moment. I should imagine that treatment from HCP who sees the numbers not the individual people can have quite an impact on an individual outcome.

[quote Ivybutterfly]@Hayeahnobut wow. We both have degrees and my husband has gone further than one. Funny how your prejudice came out there.[/quote]
All those degrees and neither of you could work out why the question was being asked, or carry out a simple search? Sounds like you're right and having degrees really doesn't mean anything...

@willloman

Mmn654123 Thank you. Wow, even more reason that they should be asking about father's education, if the effect is that dramatic.

Less reliable data though. Very often dad isn’t actually dad genetically and even if he’s around for the pregnancy often isn’t around by the time the child is grown. So I can see why there is less focus. Messier data!

@WanderlustWitch
I disagree. Just because on average something is true it doesn’t negate your ability to be an ‘outlier’. My mum never went to university and we were raised pre-internet in a poor area. Because, like you, she was very adept at acquiring the knowledge needed to protect her children she did - and other neighbouring mums tended to come to her for help as a result. It doesn’t change the fact that on average the children of less educated women have worse birth and life outcomes. That’s why it’s important to build resilience in children and make them believe they can do anything and some parents manage to do that. But the average parent doesn’t.