To thinking asking mothers educational level at booking appointment is shaming

[Ivybutterfly]

At my midwife booking appointment I was asked what age I left full time education. I remember the same question last time. They ask whether you have a degree or not. I found it rude and inappropriate. It is also irrelevant. I just sucked it up. My DH on the other hand was raging. He said it was shaming and disgusting. I agree. I think I am going to complain. Why so they ask such a rude question which has no relevance to pregnancy?

@sneakysnoopysniper

If I encounter a question on a form I dont want to answer I just put NA and move on.

Yes, we all need to be more assertive about just saying no. Women find it harder to beat no to an HCP, though and it’s often not made clear that patients can refuse to answer.

@GroundAlmonds

I was not making any kind of judgement about mother's crashing without a degree! I was explaining how statistics are used to identify an area that may require some extra support for some individuals and that it then initiates extra support and funding, no idea why you are trying to twist my words?

Sorry to hear your experience MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously. That must have been difficult.
And clearly the OP has left that appointment feeling uncomfortable, so clearly something has gone wrong here.
The OP wasn't uncomfortable. She just felt the question was, in her words, intrusive and rude, and then has tried to turn it into a moral crusade when challenged.

I didn’t get asked this (or the other questions mentioned) on any of my pregnancies. So I either look incredibly well educated or....... oh.

Take it as a complement op. She couldn’t tell if you were a brain box or thick as shit just by looking at you.

But there is proven correlation between mother's education level and child development.
They are just collecting stats. It isn't shaming. Let it go.

[quote 3ismylot]@GroundAlmonds

I was not making any kind of judgement about mother's crashing without a degree! I was explaining how statistics are used to identify an area that may require some extra support for some individuals and that it then initiates extra support and funding, no idea why you are trying to twist my words?[/quote]
I’m not trying to twist anything. I just thought that was a spectacularly poor choice of comparison.

I think it can be difficult for confident, educated, MC women to stop and truly empathise &!understand how other women experience healthcare, authority and professional women, as this thread is proving, TBH. Just being able to discern that information is for x purpose and won’t be used in judgement, and to feel confident in that assessment etc...that in itself is class and educational privilege in operation.

I do have a slight advantage here as I have done two pieces of work on related subjects.

@ODFOx

But there is proven correlation between mother's education level and child development. They are just collecting stats. It isn't shaming. Let it go.

“It’s just a proven fact that you are statistically more likely to be shit at this. They are only collecting information on who will be shit at this. Just because you’re one of the ‘likely to be shit’ ones doesn’t mean you shouldn’t answer. Let it GO!”

Absolutely tone deaf.

@3ismylot

Statistically, drivers aged 17-19 are more likely to crash than those aged 20+, it doesn't mean we tell 17-19-year-olds they are failures as drivers, it means that there are more education and interventions aimed at that aged group for prevention. So many health outcomes have improved due to public health interventions because people are asked simple, routine questions when they interact with HCP's, by all means do not answer if you do not want to but understand that it is in the interests of everyone to help make this data accurate by answering.

This - bloody well put!

@GroundAlmonds

"Just being able to discern that information is for x purpose and won’t be used in judgement, and to feel confident in that assessment etc...that in itself is class and educational privilege in operation"
Except it is a confident, educated woman that is questioning the purpose of the question!

Except it is a confident, educated woman that is questioning the purpose of the question!

Yes, it’s called empathy.

I take it all the people up in arms about data collection are also the people that do not

Have a flu jab as they are statistically higher risk?
Take a statin as they are statistically higher risk?
Have a mammogram because they are statistically higher risk?
Have colon cancer screening as they are statistically higher risk?

All of these are interventions made through public health data collection and analysis afterall

No you’re still not getting it @3ismylot

There are two issues here: The purpose of the data collection and the collection of the data.

Acknowledging that there are issues around the collection of the data doesn’t mean one is “up in arms” about the overall project.

SmileEach Day:
How do they know it's only the mother's education has an impact if they don't study/collect data on the fathers?

@willloman

SmileEach Day: How do they know it's only the mother's education has an impact if they don't study/collect data on the fathers?

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27343303/

I think you're totally unreasonable to say it's shaming Op - it's only shaming if the person answering feels ashamed (or someone else makes them feel that way). Asking a question in and of itself is not shameful. You're projecting your own thoughts and judgement into the question.

There was a huge fight here once about the name “Jayden”. I can’t quite remember how it started but a Mumsnet-famous family lawyer commented (in passing, I think) that the name Jayden cropped up disproportionately often in children subject to child protection litigation.

What followed was a half day long argument between here and a couple of dozen mums/aunts/grams of Jaydens. To her eternal credit, after a couple of hours she realised that the “facts” she was staunchly defending were being heard quite differently by the Jayden Mums as a threat.

This is similar.

@willloman

SmileEach Day: How do they know it's only the mother's education has an impact if they don't study/collect data on the fathers?

Also, hard to separate out the effect of university education from the effect of raw intelligence.

Yes, it’s called empathy
No, it's called making assumptions.

She didn't say 'could this be done better because some women might feel self conscious about their education background'

She started talking about how it's an irrelevant question, then going on about the poor working class women who must feel awful because of ot it, and then got arsey when people rightly called her out on it.

@LolaSmiles

Yes, it’s called empathy No, it's called making assumptions.

She didn't say 'could this be done better because some women might feel self conscious about their education background'

She started talking about how it's an irrelevant question, then going on about the poor working class women who must feel awful because of ot it, and then got arsey when people rightly called her out on it.

So your reaction to someone being defensive about something that is upsetting to them is to say “Aha! This just proves the unreasonableness of their logical position!”?

Goodo.

@slipperywhensparticus

*So my daughter has asthma not because her dad and grandparents on both sides have it she has it because I don't have a degree? So why don't her brothers have it then?

Just one more stick to beat mothers with*

No, it's statistics. The research doesn't show WHY asthma is more prevalent in children from parents that don't have a degree. That would need more research. Also, having a higher chance of something doesn't mean that everyone will get it.

Mmn654123 Thank you.
Wow, even more reason that they should be asking about father's education, if the effect is that dramatic.

They ask what age mothers left full time education?

I left full time education at 16 with shit GCSEs but had a masters by the time I became a mother.

I don't understand the relevance of the question.

So your reaction to someone being defensive about something that is upsetting to them is to say “Aha! This just proves the unreasonableness of their logical position!”?

Their position isn't logical.
They decided the question was rude and intrusive (as is their right to feel that way).
But instead of owning that they started a thread ranting about how the question wasn't relevant, started making sweeping class generalisations and then getting annoyed when posters have pointed out why they are wrong.

In recent pages they claimed that the thread is full of people trying to bring those mums down, that those challenging her are academics / don't care about an unequal society, that MN is a cesspool,and that they are just being a feminist. They're jumping around all over instead of considering for one second that people engaged in health research might have the tiniest clue what they are doing. Instead of getting arsey at those who've disagreed they could perhaps reflect on whether their attitudes and biases really make them the champion of working class women that they're trying to present.

What baffles me is that you seen outraged by a question relating to education when you do actually have a degree and so will be one of the higher educated respondents. It isn’t rude or intrusive. It’s a piece of information that correlates strongly to a number of outcomes for you and your baby. You might as well get used to a whole lot more questions once you start seeing the health visitors.

What did your DH think about the domestic violence questions? I’m amazed you’re chilled about those when you’ve gone completely ott about a basic demographic question.

Their position isn't logical.

I give up. Not everything is about logic, statistics and fact.