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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To thinking asking mothers educational level at booking appointment is shaming

567 replies

Ivybutterfly · 12/11/2020 16:28

At my midwife booking appointment I was asked what age I left full time education. I remember the same question last time. They ask whether you have a degree or not. I found it rude and inappropriate. It is also irrelevant. I just sucked it up. My DH on the other hand was raging. He said it was shaming and disgusting. I agree. I think I am going to complain. Why so they ask such a rude question which has no relevance to pregnancy?

OP posts:
MrsPotatoHeadsSheeWee · 12/11/2020 20:48

I was never asked to fill in anything as part of my booking in appointment. The MW asked questions and completed the tick box form. I could've got through it without being able to read.

Yes, all staff and agencies failed this girl and her child, her whole life. Asking about educational history- and sensitively using it to drill down about skill levels- is what this question seeks to do.

OP and her DH have gone so far above this level they've lost the empathy to see why it is necessary for some women and families.

SentientAndCognisant · 12/11/2020 20:49

Actual medicine does include questions about socioeconomics & demographics
Because knowing lifestyle, socioeconomic factors informs and guides good clinical practice
I see graphista has linked reputable sources and gave a good explanation

ivftake1 · 12/11/2020 20:49

@Chicchicchicchiclana

I think this is terribly intrusive. You are an individual, a person, not there to provide data for harvesting. You don't have to answer questions like that, much as you don't have to answer questions about your ethnicity or sexuality if you choose not to.
No, we're individuals that are part of a wider society.
MyGazeboisLeaking · 12/11/2020 20:50

@echt

*The question is asked to identify and help the most vulnerable women and families. It wasn't asked in my area and a young woman (girl, actually) slipped through the net and was given leaflets about how to feed her baby, amongst other things. She couldn't read and did not know how to safely prepare milk for her baby, leading to problems for the child. She didn't know who or where to get help for anything. She couldn't seek help for the DV she experienced, which lead to her murder. She was totally failed by leaflets WHICH SHE COULD NOT READ*

That's a terrible sorry, but do you not think that that's a failing of the booking in system staff, that they asked a pregnant woman to fill in forms / sign documents and failed to notice that she couldn't read?

Such is the shame attached to not being literate that many go to extraordinary lengths to conceal it. I'd like to link to an article but there all behind paywalls.

This sort of addresses it:

hummingbirdlearning.com/recognise-someone-hiding-learning-difficulty/

I remember years ago news article about a man who'd been postie for years and it was only discovered much later he couldn't read. He didn't misdeliver letters, looked at the shape of words and numbers and, of course, he had a round he was familiar with.

The there was the postie who dumped letters because he couldn't read the directions.

It's very sad indeed.

I don't dispute this at all, but your post also brings to light that in this situation, the person questioned would also lie about their level of education to continue the facade.

MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously · 12/11/2020 20:50

ImaSababa You are missing the point. I never said there wasn't a link. I said that making this link to women at their medical appointment will only make them feel like failures before they have even given birth. It's not helpful because general trends aren't conclusive proof that outcomes for that individual patient will be bad. There are better, less clunky ways of ensuring those who need extra support don't fall through the net.
Pregnant women are at one of the most vulnerable times of their lives. They need HCP to be tactful and sensitive.

YippieKayakOtherBuckets · 12/11/2020 20:52

That's a terrible sorry, but do you not think that that's a failing of the booking in system staff, that they asked a pregnant woman to fill in forms / sign documents and failed to notice that she couldn't read?

I am fairly sure that I wasn’t asked to fill in anything at either of my bookings-in. The midwife on each occasion asked questions and filled everything in, and I think asked me to tap a check-box on an iPad for data consent.

3ismylot · 12/11/2020 20:53

@MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously

ImaSababa You are missing the point. I never said there wasn't a link. I said that making this link to women at their medical appointment will only make them feel like failures before they have even given birth. It's not helpful because general trends aren't conclusive proof that outcomes for that individual patient will be bad. There are better, less clunky ways of ensuring those who need extra support don't fall through the net. Pregnant women are at one of the most vulnerable times of their lives. They need HCP to be tactful and sensitive.
I think you are the one missing the point. The answer to a mothers education level is not used as conclusive proof for her as an individual patient, it is recorded for public health data and will not affect how the HCP's treat her, it isn't asked in a nasty intrusive way, it is part of an appointment asking all sorts of relevant questions.
Somethingsnappy · 12/11/2020 20:54

@FelicityPike, with your PhD, besides the points others have raised, you should probably at the very least know the correct written form of your qualification....

GroundAlmonds · 12/11/2020 20:54

@HepLaurenceLB

Is it so they can work out if you are able to read and understand the written information that they give you.
What utter nonsense. People don’t learn to read at university. 😂 (Hopefully!)
MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously · 12/11/2020 20:55

If you say to a woman that statistically outcomes are worse for her child because she falls into a certain category, how would she not feel like a failure. It's not about what I think, it's about how pregnant women might feel.

3ismylot · 12/11/2020 20:58

@MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously

If you say to a woman that statistically outcomes are worse for her child because she falls into a certain category, how would she not feel like a failure. It's not about what I think, it's about how pregnant women might feel.
But they DON'T say that to her! They ask her highest level of education along with a whole host of questions and give her the care she needs. The data is collected, anonymised and analysed as and when studies are conducted.
closetalker · 12/11/2020 20:59

@MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously

If you say to a woman that statistically outcomes are worse for her child because she falls into a certain category, how would she not feel like a failure. It's not about what I think, it's about how pregnant women might feel.
That absolutely isn't what is said to a woman during such an appointment!
SentientAndCognisant · 12/11/2020 20:59

The education questions are also asked in conjunction to others
There’s no tahdah moment when the mw says,no degree...oh dearie me

Mmn654123 · 12/11/2020 21:02

Maternal education has a modifying effect on things like a background of poverty or living in deprived areas which are known to impact birth weight and other baby outcomes.

Pubmed is easy to search for papers.

3ismylot · 12/11/2020 21:06

Statistically, drivers aged 17-19 are more likely to crash than those aged 20+, it doesn't mean we tell 17-19-year-olds they are failures as drivers, it means that there are more education and interventions aimed at that aged group for prevention.
So many health outcomes have improved due to public health interventions because people are asked simple, routine questions when they interact with HCP's, by all means do not answer if you do not want to but understand that it is in the interests of everyone to help make this data accurate by answering.

BanginChoons · 12/11/2020 21:06

It's a survey question for statistical purposes. I'm a midwife and I've not once looked back at that question after the booking history is taken. My time with each patient is limited, and I use it wisely by looking at the social, medical and obstetric history, as opposed to being nosey and judgey. Please be reassured, I have no interest in when you left school (or what street you live in, what you do for a living etc) and will do everything I can to help and support you safely through your pregnancy regardless of your background.

MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously · 12/11/2020 21:11

Do you think a woman won't draw a negative conclusion all by herself from being asked that question? Surely the first thing you'd do is ask her why she wants to know

LolaSmiles · 12/11/2020 21:13

If you say to a woman that statistically outcomes are worse for her child because she falls into a certain category, how would she not feel like a failure. It's not about what I think, it's about how pregnant women might feel
Except they don't say that.

There's a lot of tying in knots.

Who'd have thought trying to improve maternity outcomes would be so offensive?

BiBabbles · 12/11/2020 21:14

If you say to a woman that statistically outcomes are worse for her child because she falls into a certain category, how would she not feel like a failure. It's not about what I think, it's about how pregnant women might feel.

I don't think midwives often have time to discuss the statistical correlation. It's just asked like any other demographic information.

I was asked where I was born, I wasn't told that there is a correlation with being an immigrant mother and higher infant mortality or any other 'negative outcomes' or that it was compounded with my eldest with my then low education level, low income, my ethnicities, my age at the time, and other statistical disadvantages (the only time higher risk was mentioned was my being underweight). It doesn't mean me and every other mother like me are failures, it's population data.

Some professionals were great at using that to tailor information to me - at times I found the NHS system confusing and appreciated having things more fully explained - and other times my lack of experience in the setting and lack of knowledge were used against me which did lead to some issues. Both helping mothers and figuring out where our systems & the HCPs in them are failing are important ways of looking at this type of data.

My education and familiarity with the jargon & setting were part of me as an individual and any HCP should consider that. Some professionals may ask questions about that better than others, I've certainly had some clunkers in my time, but asking about demographic information with negative correlations isn't blaming the mothers, a large part of it is how our systems fail mothers in particular groups.

SleepWellBeast · 12/11/2020 21:14

For me, it was a badly worded question as I left full time education at 18 but returned part time a little later and now have a MSc. I answered the Q accurately by saying 18 but I suspect it wasn't what they were looking for.

ginnybag · 12/11/2020 21:15

Its not about feelings, though. There are ways to collect the data that are more sensitive than others, but ultimately its important and so its needed. Its a question, not a judgement.

As others have pointed out, there are lots of links between mother's educational level, and various issues and outcomes for the child. These are well researched, well documented studies over many, many years. There are lots of 'softer' reasons for asking, including a quick gauge as to what support might be needed.

If we stop identifying data, stop aligning cause to outcome, then we abandon the research driven good practice that is the cornerstone of clinical improvement. Maternal weight has links, too, and being weighed at every appointment and perhaps classed as obese and sent for Glucose tests because of it could also be 'shaming'. So could noting on their records that an ultrasound scan is less accurate for those women. (And I was one of them, fwiw). Does that mean we should ignore the increased risk factors presented in those cases, in case we hurt someone's feelings?

sneakysnoopysniper · 12/11/2020 21:16

If I encounter a question on a form I dont want to answer I just put NA and move on.

GroundAlmonds · 12/11/2020 21:16

@3ismylot

Statistically, drivers aged 17-19 are more likely to crash than those aged 20+, it doesn't mean we tell 17-19-year-olds they are failures as drivers, it means that there are more education and interventions aimed at that aged group for prevention. So many health outcomes have improved due to public health interventions because people are asked simple, routine questions when they interact with HCP's, by all means do not answer if you do not want to but understand that it is in the interests of everyone to help make this data accurate by answering.
Now THAT is a patronising comparison.

Women are “more likely to crash” as mothers if they don’t have a degree?

This is about something far more subtle.

3ismylot · 12/11/2020 21:17

@MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously

Do you think a woman won't draw a negative conclusion all by herself from being asked that question? Surely the first thing you'd do is ask her why she wants to know
You are making out like it is being asked as a standalone question by an HCP making an instant judgement and commenting on the answer when in reality it is a tickbox question along with a whole host of others. Most women will barely even register that it has been asked.
MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously · 12/11/2020 21:18

Possibly I'm oversensitive about these things because I had a health visitor who was shockingly insensitive and made me feel terrible at a time when I was hormonal and already feeling vulnerable. And clearly the OP has left that appointment feeling uncomfortable, so clearly something has gone wrong here.