AIBU to ask how "coloured" and "of colour" differ?

[JohnAndMichaelsSister]

I've hesitated all day before posting this, because it's a sensitive subject and I don't want to offend anyone. But I need to know the answer, so as not to unintentionally offend anyone in future!

I turned on the radio this morning (Today on Radio 4) to hear that the FA chairman Greg Clarke has had to resign for using the term “coloured footballers”. Then Dame Heather Rabbatts, in talking about it, used the phrase “person of colour”.

How can “coloured” be offensive and “of colour” not be?

To me, logically, both seem offensive. Both imply that to be white is “the norm”, and lump together everyone else in the world who is of any other colour as somehow departing from this “norm”.

And any physicist will tell you that white is formed by combining all the colours of the spectrum, while black is an absence of colour. So actually it's white people who are coloured!

Yet for a while now we have been told that “... of colour” is the correct term for everyone who isn't white.

I'm in the UK, but I know that in the US the main organisation that campaigns for the rights of black people is called The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People.

So I'm totally confused. I'd like some guidance (especially from black British people - I'm white) on what is offensive and what isn't.

YANBU = “coloured” and “of colour” are as offensive or inoffensive as each other.
YABU = there really is some difference between the two terms.

And your post screams of "We allowed you to come here, now know your place and don't get ideas above your station".

Of course you're proud it's diverse and inclusive because you think Britain's giving handouts (pat on the back for GB) rather than 'reaping what they sowed' in terms of what they did to other countries (and not even up to half of it).

I'm pretty sure you also think Britain gives foreign aids out of generosity and not because there's a barter system going on between Britain and those countries.

@Savourysenorita

If Britain never allowed migrant settlement we wouldn't have a BAME community. I'm proud our country is so diverse and inclusive. Other neighbouring countries are not. Regardless of colour

This kind of post shows how utterly vital it is for schools to teach the truth about colonialism.

So true @Ylfa! Savoury’s posts are coming across as pretty ignorant. One earlier on in the thread implied that bringing a white partner home would be an issue for families who aren’t white and when I challenged her about it, she didn’t respond. There seems to be an agenda here.

We’d never say “african british”, for example. I have heard many Black americans are rejecting “african american” because most are now many generations away from africa, and are american, not a different kind of american that needs defining by country of origin.

Tbf, naming their heritage is something many Americans do, regardless of skin colour. Irish American, Italian American etc.

I can see my posts are being misconstrued quite cruelly with sentiments which were certainly not what I was trying to evoke. I'm bowing out. Ps an above poster mentioned I never had a come back for a post I supposedly made which she referred to as 'deleted' none of my posts have been deleted so I can't argue against something mythical I supposedly said.

Ps insulting my intelligence because my my viewpoint is coming from a different angle to your own is hostile and cruel. I have been told by a number of for example Indian Co workers as well as others from an Asian background first hand that in their community it would not be approved of to bring home a white partner. They don't represent the whole of their race in the UK of course but it is a real concept within their culture.

@Savourysenorita

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

This was your deleted post on this thread that I had replied to which you claimed you didn't know what I meant in my reply. I went back to copy and paste the exact part I was replying and found out it was deleted.

Why would I claim something that can be easily verified?

Think you should keep up with your own posts or stop posting things that are "always" easily miscontrued.

One or two other posters also replied to said post. You should try scrolling backwards or upwards sometime.

How many of you who don't like the phrase 'white privilege' have no problem with the phrase 'male privilege' in debates about feminism and misogyny? I've followed quite a few threads where male posters have been given a hard time when they've objected to the phrase 'male privilege'.

I do wonder at times whether the phrase 'white privilege' is doing more harm than good and whether it should be dropped. If it's antagonising white people who are not at all racist then that's a shame. (We don't want to end up as polarised as the US is these days.)

Having said that, I would like to see an end to the term 'woke' as well.

Savourysenorita Fri 13-Nov-20 16:13:44
Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines

Incase you need the date and time.

@Mittens030869, yes I don’t like that term either, or woke, or anything which makes certain generalisations about groups of people, lumping them all in together.

It is not helpful in my opinion, and tends to detract from the actual message.

Actually Savoury, I've just reread your posts and they don't really make sense as I believe you're mixing two or three posters as one.

One poster said you didn't respond to her question/post ("Didn't have a comeback", as you put it).

Another poster (me, many posts ago) said your post, which I tried to copy and paste, was deleted after you claimed you didn't know what my reply to you was about. Proof given.

Not sure which poster insulted your intelligence but I can't say it's me. You've had a few replies to your posts. If so, please be direct and show me where and when.

@Mittens030869

How many of you who don't like the phrase 'white privilege' have no problem with the phrase 'male privilege' in debates about feminism and misogyny? I've followed quite a few threads where male posters have been given a hard time when they've objected to the phrase 'male privilege'.

I do wonder at times whether the phrase 'white privilege' is doing more harm than good and whether it should be dropped. If it's antagonising white people who are not at all racist then that's a shame. (We don't want to end up as polarised as the US is these days.)

Having said that, I would like to see an end to the term 'woke' as well.

I think ‘white privilege’ should be re-named, because it up implies that all white people are privileged, with the definition of privilege meaning wealthy, good jobs, good education etc and not living in poverty.

People misunderstand what it actually means, ie, the more subtle meaning that white people take for granted, and BAME community doesn’t. The most current example I can think of is COVID - whites have better health outcome then BAME for example .(probably not a good example).

@Standrewsschool I quite agree with you. There should be a re-definition, as 'white privilege' is causing far too much offence. Like it or not, the word 'privilege' does imply wealth to the majority of people.

But there is a genuine message behind the phrase, which needs to be expressed.

Privilege means different things and people choose to hold onto the meaning they want.

I think rather than saying it causes offence, it should be said it causes confusion. Repeating that it causes offence, therefore it should be erased, only serves to make some people dig their heels in because most people won't care if people they feel offended them in the first place are also offended. Understandably so.

I doubt feminists care about any offence a man takes at any term used.

Saying it causes confusion, if that is truly what it causes, makes it more understandable and might make some people more willing to change the term, just for clarification and not to reduce/eliminate offence.

I think the problem here is you cant force colourblindness, you cant force changes in preconceptions. You can create all the policies you want and police language as much as you like, but positive change is something that happens gradually, step by step, as each generation learns something from the last.

I think the white population have generally made huge advances in mindsets over the past few decades: certainly more than in some other communities.

On first dates the other night I saw a british asian guy and a British asian woman who were both specifically looking to date another british asian so that they would "get" each other. If that isnt racist and regressive I dont know what it is.

I think theres a general fatigue now where well meaning and open minded white people are choosing to tune out after having seen racism served up to them in response to efforts to make things better. We can now expect to start moving backwards socially

@Raceless Fair enough, that makes a lot of sense. Yes, it's more the case that it causes confusion, because of the misunderstanding around the word 'privilege'.

I'm not speaking up for those who act all offended and go on about 'wokeness', I'm only speaking about those who genuinely don't get it.

Even 'advantage' would be a better word, I feel, for the reason given that privilege is synonymous with riches, for many people.

I'm not sure how to put this ... but privilege also has connotations of being a cut above, being above the norm, when really we want that to be the norm. Like, BAME people are not getting their due, whereas white people are. Maybe someone can put it more elegantly or succinctly than I have there.

Re COVID and BAME people, that seems to be a complex issue with those of Asiam descent faring the worst. Is it socio-economic such as overcrowded homes, or being more likely to work in public facing roles without adequate PPE? Or is unconscious bias on the part of HCPs? Or is there some sort of genetic vulnerability in some groups?
Only the first two could be explained as lack of privilege, imo, and as we don't know yet I think we should be wary of jumping to conclusions, it never helps.

@Mittens030869 I get you. It's a good idea to separate the two groups.

I also agree with what you said about the term 'woke' (as a pejorative), as well as virtue-signalling, snowflake, libtard, gammon, all of it.

7days - yes,apologies, Covid wasn’t a good example in hindsight. It’s the first thing that came to mind, and as you say, other factors could also come into play.

@raceless sorry, what is ‘libtard’ and ‘gammon’ in this context. To me, gammon is a nice piece of cooked ham.

Oh that's fair enough StAndrewsSchool , I know you said that in your post, I was just expanding on your point.

Lol @Standrewsschool Oh these are names among many others thrown around by people on one side of a cause or party or argument at people on the other side.

Google says:

GAMMON
[ˈɡamən]
NOUN
BRITISH

1. ham that has been cured or smoked like bacon.

"I ate a plateful of gammon, eggs, and chips" · [More]

BRITISH
informal
derogatory

1. a middle-aged or older white man with conservative, traditionalist views, stereotypically characterized as having a red or flushed complexion.

"they had a discussion with some gammon who thinks climate change is a lie"

LIBTARD
[ˈlɪbtɑːd]
NOUN
US
offensive
a contemptuous term for a person with left-wing political views.

I also thought the same thing the day I heard the 'gammon' term. Found it funny to be honest (as I did many others) but still think all the mudslinging and name-calling is unnecessary and adds nothing productive to the discussion.

"And any physicist will tell you that white is formed by combining all the colours of the spectrum, while black is an absence of colour. So actually it's white people who are coloured! "

not really, the color you see is what is reflected from light. When you look at an object, part of the light that shines on it is reflected (that's what you see) and part of it is absorbed. The color is just an indication of what bandwidths are reflected. Something that would reflect all of the light would be a perfect mirror. Something that doesn't reflect any light would be invisible.

What 'colour' is the soul?

"A rose is a rose by any other name"

It's the 21st century......we still have the class system and poverty and divides in society that we had millenia ago..........
...and our educational, scientific, technological 'advances' have been having a race of their own whilst playing divide and conquer between human 'races'......

Our humanity being sacrificed and yet so many still can't see beyond the indoctrination and stupefying of nations.