AIBU to ask how "coloured" and "of colour" differ?

[JohnAndMichaelsSister]

I've hesitated all day before posting this, because it's a sensitive subject and I don't want to offend anyone. But I need to know the answer, so as not to unintentionally offend anyone in future!

I turned on the radio this morning (Today on Radio 4) to hear that the FA chairman Greg Clarke has had to resign for using the term “coloured footballers”. Then Dame Heather Rabbatts, in talking about it, used the phrase “person of colour”.

How can “coloured” be offensive and “of colour” not be?

To me, logically, both seem offensive. Both imply that to be white is “the norm”, and lump together everyone else in the world who is of any other colour as somehow departing from this “norm”.

And any physicist will tell you that white is formed by combining all the colours of the spectrum, while black is an absence of colour. So actually it's white people who are coloured!

Yet for a while now we have been told that “... of colour” is the correct term for everyone who isn't white.

I'm in the UK, but I know that in the US the main organisation that campaigns for the rights of black people is called The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People.

So I'm totally confused. I'd like some guidance (especially from black British people - I'm white) on what is offensive and what isn't.

YANBU = “coloured” and “of colour” are as offensive or inoffensive as each other.
YABU = there really is some difference between the two terms.

Explaining to a child someone’s racial or ethnic background is way different than coding someone via their ethnicity in conversation. Yes, talk to your kids about what race their friends are and what that means BUT once you have done that you can explain as my parents did with me that it is not necessary to describe someone via race when telling a story or speaking about them in conversation. I have found it to be true that a racial descriptor to describe someone is often unnecessary when relating a story or pointing someone out. In this day and age when many are non-binary in terms of gender and use they/them pronouns surely we can use other ways to describe people than the Black person, the Asian person etc. It is not creative and lazy.
Also, when I said classic White Womaning tactics it had nothing to do with protecting your children and you very blatantly missed the point with your outrage. It is interesting how so many of you miss the point and instead dig in your heels and assert your rights to slap labels on people. If your child is curious about race by all means explain it to them. I never said it was to hush hush to be mentioned I said it was an unreliable descriptor for identifying people.
I am disappointed but not surprised by these responses I think the greatest differences between our countries is that in America we acknowledge and try to tackle our problems head on while in the UK you seem to not even acknowledge the problem exists. Which is why we have two refugees who need not be named who have recently moved to our shores to escape.
How are you protecting your children by letting them grow up as race neutral individuals while they slap a label on all non-White people? To me it seems your children will be unprepared for the multicultural world of the future and will often blunder with what should be simple concepts.
When I referred to White Womaning I was referring to the assessments and observations that I have made, which I will post, though I know it will cause severe outrage, but I feel it needs to be said. And no, I’m not racist against White people. I came from the body of a White woman and love many White people. In all reality my DNA is more European than anything else as I am a child of an ADOS (American Descendant Of Slaves) a population which is heavily admixed with European DNA 20% on average which makes me well over 50% European and helps create the optical confusion of my appearance. So, with no further delay here it is.
This is what I call White Womaning 101. You have now made yourself the victim instead of listening and learning. Here is what you have done.
White Womaning 101

1. Accuse person making salient point you don’t like of not making sense.
2. Make it all about yourself.
3. Activate damsel in distress mode with expressions of bewilderment about not being able to understand the point being made.

4.Play the, “I’m just a White girl card” and imply that the person of color is discriminating against Whites or your DC.

1. Ugly cry to garner sympathy.
2. Become the victim.

Congratulations you passed with flying colors. A+ Not trying to read Mumsnet for filth but the time has come to say it like it is. Or in some of your cases call a Black a Black cause that’s what they are right? Peace out Mumsnetters, good luck. Going back to my life and leaving this site for good. Thank goodness I’m American, with all our faults on display for the whole world to see we still rise up to battle our demons together. Be blessed and take care.

@HeIsAVeryBadBoy

*"White womanning", for wanting to protect our kids? You were using black kids feelings to make your point, is that not the same impulse?

It's not right to judge or belittle anyone because of their race. That goes both ways.*

Yup. It's the quickest way to turn people away from you. I am not engaging with any argument that blanket acuses non-blacks on this thread of 'white womaning'.

Yessss but that's allowed don't you see? White people just aren't allowed to say seemingly innocently intended words such as 'black' 'mixed race' or BAME incase it offends. We all now racism is the intention behind what you say. I think the problem should be in the case of the offended in some cases where the intention of well meaning people are interpreted incorrectly

P.S. Interesting how so many of you don’t want to be labeled by race e.g. my White Womaning comment but have no problem labeling others in the same way. I think that says far more about you than me. Again, good luck! Take care!

White womaning - because no one can be allowed to be communicating in good faith. Only some have the keys to righteousness and they will determine who is and is not righteous.

It’s all very depressing.

@MelCMel

P.S. Interesting how so many of you don’t want to be labeled by race e.g. my White Womaning comment but have no problem labeling others in the same way. I think that says far more about you than me. Again, good luck! Take care!

No no no no. You don't get away with that. You labelled offensively. Observing a colour of skin by a 5 year old child is not using a derogatory term. I'm glad the people of colour (they're the majority by the way before you start) have been nothing like you. I don't think you're hypocritical and easily offended nature is a great representation for positive race relations.

*meant to say the people of colour I work with

*your not you're. Tired 🙈

Nothing to do with being "blind to colour" or what have you, but I honestly don't regularly find myself needing to describe someone based on skin colour, any more than I do on the size of their nose.

"Where's the staff kitchen"

• you dont say "over there, by that white guy", do you. You say "just on the left,

.... by the guy in the blue shirt."

Sorry, I don’t understand the ‘white womaning’ phrase.

SavourySenorita
I said absolutely nothing about a 5 year old child you did. I said kids on the playground and I never said it was derogatory. I said that White children get to be race neutral while all others are labeled by race but thank you 🙏🏽 for proving my point. Also, nothing I said was hypocritical it was just truthful which is something that many can obviously not handle. I’m glad you don’t know other POC like me as we are not a monolith and are individual, living, breathing people with our own thoughts and opinions not a race or an ethnicity which is the point I have been making all along. Just spilling the tea, but you are welcome to seethe. I for one shall continue on enjoying my life. To all those that get it. Two thumbs up and a double pat on the back! You are welcome to come to the global cookout! 😉 Signed. The Americans.

Oh, and my White Womaning comments were just turning the tables so you can see how it feels. But to echo another poster thank goodness I know more lovely, open, strong, amazing, empathetic, White women than is reflected via this conversation. It is all just language to help you understand how it feels to be grouped and classed as a monolith based on race. You fell right into my snare and if you don’t like being described as a monolith of White women. Why on earth would anyone else want to be classed by the whole of their race? Think about it.

And now a 6 point checklist of white womanning - that's just, like, your opinion, man.

I haven't missed your point. I'm objecting to pejorative labels placed on people because of the colour of their skin and/or their sex. I've been doing it all my life, and I'll continue to do it, regardless of who it's from and regardless of who its aimed at.

As to the actual point of your post, that it's not necessary to mention skin colour as its othering - that's interesting. It's not a viewpoint I have heard in recent years, mostly heard that skin colour is just a descriptor and theres no moral value inherent in it. Just treat it like hair colour or height or shirt colour or whatever, as children do. That makes sense to me, personally.
But while I'm open to other viewpoints on that, problem is, there no consensus so everyone will have make their own judgement really when deciding how to act in their own lives.

7Days
If it is only a descriptor as height, hair color, etc.why do we not apply it to White people? White people for the most part get to be race neutral. That is my point. Good on you for living your life as you see fit and upholding a fair perspective for all. And yes, this is my opinion as a mixed race woman in her thirties. I find children’s assessment of race quite different than adults as adults are fully aware of the loaded implications race carries with it, but children are still innocent. Also, how do you class people who are multiracial and don’t present as one specific race? Than, it’s just someone making racial assumptions and puts the onus on people like me to have to give TED talks explaining my background when I’m just trying to buy groceries. In the years to come as people become more intermixed how will we know what anyone is? Also, again if we can accept non-binary gender and not label people in that way why is it so hard to apply it to race?

*White Womaning 101

1. Accuse person making salient point you don’t like of not making sense.
2. Make it all about yourself.
3. Activate damsel in distress mode with expressions of bewilderment about not being able to understand the point being made.

4.Play the, “I’m just a White girl card” and imply that the person of color is discriminating against Whites or your DC.

1. Ugly cry to garner sympathy.
2. Become the victim.*

You fell right into my snare

Of what, being race baited? Doesn't matter which way that cuts, its 100% not acceptable.

You seem to be coming from a really defensive and asumptive space, and it's one that's free-wheeling with racial insults. I don't believe you are 'flipping the script' for effect, you seem to have a deep seated issue with white people.

'actually it's white people who are coloured!'

Really have people not got anything better to do.

White is coloured Are people just getting more stupid lately or what.

Why do you have to describe or address people by colour just get on with your day...BTW you sound weird.

@garlictwist

I am also white so not sure if I am allowed to have an opinion but I hate the term "of colour". It lumps everyone who is not white into one category as if they are all the same. And it also sounds really mealy-mouthed. What's wrong with saying someone is "black" or "Pakistani" or something more precise?

Why would you call someone Pakistani? They may be born in the UK.

OP, YABU for using the NAACP to further your agenda, it was formed in 1909, in a very different climate. Just because they used the term ‘coloured’ doesn’t mean you get to.

mel to be honest I dont see how you can get away from that in a white majority society. In Japan the white/black person would look 'unusual'. In Italy the blonde Nordic type would be noted. In smaller scales , like town or neighbourhood scales, if its black majority the white person would be noticeable. The majority in the room/street/city/country gets to be race neutral. Because your eyes cant help noting the distinction in appearance same-same-same -diffe re nt. But your mind/heart doesnt have to apply a snap judgement as to their personality etc.
That's the principle I'm operating on.

@Savourysenorita

I was of the understanding that coloured and of colour was patronising and offensive. The race is 'black' the ethnicity is 'black' I've been told by colleagues and friends who happen to be black that they refer to themselves as 'black' coloured is a term devised by white people to Pussy foot around because they're too scared to use the word 'black' and in doing so actually come across as ignorant and more racist. I'm willing to be corrected.

This.

Without showing my age, at Junior School, I went to my friends house, she is dual heritage and her Dad is a really decent, lovely guy. Anyway I was telling him how my Mum has always told me not to be horrible to anyone because of the colour of their skin (she had a friend at school who suffered badly with racism) at some point in the convo I said ‘coloured’ he asked why I said that and I said because it was polite, he smiled and we had a giggle, he said am I purple? No. Am I yellow? No. Am I all the colours of the rainbow? No. He said I am black, so call me black. Don’t know why but it’s a really vivid memory but at the time probably 7/8 year old me honestly thought it was polite 🤷‍♀️

When I was a child my school teacher told us to use the term coloured as saying a person was black was unkind. Now I know several black people who prefer to be called black and say being referred to as coloured is rude. I just prefer to use a person's first name if I know it and not to mention if they are not white because it really does not matter.

I wouldn’t refer to anyone’s ethnicity at all in any context in case I used the wrong terminology. What is deemed acceptable seems to change constantly over time and as far as I’m concerned it doesn’t matter what colour someone’s skin is. We are all human.

But if the answer is not to mention racial designators like "black" or "of colour" or whatever, how are we supposed to manage to say things like "black students in state schools are 3 times as likely to be punished than white students?"

There surely has to be some agreed upon language people can use without fearing they will walk into a minefield.

My son went to a school where the students population who are black is 40% (50% are white and other race) and they don't go around calling my son white kid. Nor he does the same to them. It is really easy to describe them without using race.

Beside, everytime when we do tuse race as their descriptor, and because a lot white people struggled to distinguish one black person from another (there is research that proved this) , it caused a lot of problem with the police causing them to catch the wrong person. We are not doing anyone a favor using it as descriptor if all we do is describe everyone by their race.

I don’t know OP, but I hope I don’t sound facetious to say I long for the day when it’s not even necessary to use any term to describe people on the basis of their race, ethnicity or skin colour.

How can that be possible? Surely it's acceptable and necessary in some cases to use a person's skin colour to describe them. Just like you might say "give this to that lady with the brown hair" or whatever. If you're in a situation where you're pointing out a black woman with black hair and she's standing with a white woman with black hair, both dressed the same (at work in uniform for example) what would you suggest?