AIBU to ask how "coloured" and "of colour" differ?

[JohnAndMichaelsSister]

I've hesitated all day before posting this, because it's a sensitive subject and I don't want to offend anyone. But I need to know the answer, so as not to unintentionally offend anyone in future!

I turned on the radio this morning (Today on Radio 4) to hear that the FA chairman Greg Clarke has had to resign for using the term “coloured footballers”. Then Dame Heather Rabbatts, in talking about it, used the phrase “person of colour”.

How can “coloured” be offensive and “of colour” not be?

To me, logically, both seem offensive. Both imply that to be white is “the norm”, and lump together everyone else in the world who is of any other colour as somehow departing from this “norm”.

And any physicist will tell you that white is formed by combining all the colours of the spectrum, while black is an absence of colour. So actually it's white people who are coloured!

Yet for a while now we have been told that “... of colour” is the correct term for everyone who isn't white.

I'm in the UK, but I know that in the US the main organisation that campaigns for the rights of black people is called The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People.

So I'm totally confused. I'd like some guidance (especially from black British people - I'm white) on what is offensive and what isn't.

YANBU = “coloured” and “of colour” are as offensive or inoffensive as each other.
YABU = there really is some difference between the two terms.

Avoiding talking about someone's skin colour says that their skin colour is shameful in some way. Of course you need to do it! And yes, you do also need to tell the police what skin colour an assailant has. FFS.

There's obviously a hell of a long way to go still if people think we should avoid talking about and pretend we don't notice someone's ethnicity or skin colour.

To not acknowledge colour of skin is to ignore the inherent challenges and prejudices that come with it.

My DH is black. It is such a dominant force in his life in a way that as a white person I really don't think we understand as we don't consider our race on a daily business. I grew up just being the default race. (99% white area). I can't speak for everyone here obviously but for many of us, it's just not a consideration day to day.

There are so many ways his life is affected by his ethnicity. If he is walking at night he will need to cross over the road from a woman otherwise she will get scared. He has to constantly make himself appear less scary at work as people are intimidated by black males. Or sexualised actually, after a few drinks he is propositioned a lot. He's asked to constantly be the spokesperson for all black people and represent his ethnicity as the only black person in his huge team. He has been assaulted by police on his lunch break, accused of dealing drugs when he was going to get a boots meal deal.

I could go on and on. Hundreds of examples of micro aggressions and straight up racism.

What does it do if I say to him, I don't see race? It says I don't see your struggles, I don't see your embarrassment and the prejudice.

It's important to talk about ethnicity. In the same way it's important to talk about women's rights.

Re skin colour as a descriptor. I’m white, and live in a country where the local population isn’t. If I’m pointing someone out and they’re the only (other) white person (whom I don’t know) in a setting, I’m likely to describe them as ‘the white guy’. I’d expect to be described similarly. If, however, I were describing someone from this country I would refer to ‘the guy in the hat’ or whatever. It’s just the way it is.

It is also still used in South Africa.

In SA it is used to describe one particular group of people who have mixed heritage and speak Afrikaans.

I don’t know OP, but I hope I don’t sound facetious to say I long for the day when it’s not even necessary to use any term to describe people on the basis of their race, ethnicity or skin colour.

I long for the day it is something we notice but don't care about like someone's accent.

If you don't notice colour you cannot notice racism or discuss the slave trade.

'Coloured' has historically been used by white people to describe people seen as 'less'.

'People of colour' is how a group of people have chosen to refer to themselves and it is polite to respect that.

I think its dumb to have a problem with using ethnicity as a description. It's also completely disingenuous and everybody knows it.

When you're in a majority white or black place or setting for example, its laughable to be like "you know, the woman with long dark hair. You know? Shes really nice, sometimes she wears these red boots. Shes quite tall."

We all know that actually if you just said "the Asian woman" everyone would instantly know who you're referring to. Its nonsense to not use ethnicity as a descriptor. Its one of the most immediately obvious things about a person. Its the kind of thing the faux woke do and its embarrassing.

@MelCMel

SavourySenorita I said absolutely nothing about a 5 year old child you did. I said kids on the playground and I never said it was derogatory. I said that White children get to be race neutral while all others are labeled by race but thank you 🙏🏽 for proving my point. Also, nothing I said was hypocritical it was just truthful which is something that many can obviously not handle. I’m glad you don’t know other POC like me as we are not a monolith and are individual, living, breathing people with our own thoughts and opinions not a race or an ethnicity which is the point I have been making all along. Just spilling the tea, but you are welcome to seethe. I for one shall continue on enjoying my life. To all those that get it. Two thumbs up and a double pat on the back! You are welcome to come to the global cookout! 😉 Signed. The Americans.

No.... You used 'white womaning' offensively and made a jibe that 'see all you white people don't like being described by your race' used as a comparison. But it's not a correct comparison as nobody made offensive comparisons on here to people of colour. So it's hardly the same thing. If someone came on and said 'all you blacks' then you retorted with that - fair point. Ones offensive one isn't. There probably are racist white people that lump 'all you blacks' together. I've no doubts. They need educating. But I think the people on here represent the good majority of white people that are not racist and are desperate to not offend and say the correct words to avoid offence (so they're not racist) and people like you come along and start not picking and finding offence where there is none intended and making everyone look like a racist for pointing out a child has described a child as 'black' in a sea of white children. It's just an easy identifier. Same as a white person would be an easy identifier in a majority black country. That may be uncomfortable but it is a fact. Hush hushing a slim colour only serves to make an innocent child or person for that matter think there's something bad about being black. There isn't is there?!

Slim = slim

"White womaning"
😂😂😂
I think people need to start getting over themselves

@AllByMySelfDontWannaBe

I think its dumb to have a problem with using ethnicity as a description. It's also completely disingenuous and everybody knows it.

When you're in a majority white or black place or setting for example, its laughable to be like "you know, the woman with long dark hair. You know? Shes really nice, sometimes she wears these red boots. Shes quite tall."

We all know that actually if you just said "the Asian woman" everyone would instantly know who you're referring to. Its nonsense to not use ethnicity as a descriptor. Its one of the most immediately obvious things about a person. Its the kind of thing the faux woke do and its embarrassing.

Couldn't have put it better myself. Definitely a woke thing and your word was very apt. It is completely 'disingenuous' and reeks of 'I'm too scared to say she's black' so why are you too scared to say she's black? What's wrong with being black?

@AllByMySelfDontWannaBe

I think its dumb to have a problem with using ethnicity as a description. It's also completely disingenuous and everybody knows it.

When you're in a majority white or black place or setting for example, its laughable to be like "you know, the woman with long dark hair. You know? Shes really nice, sometimes she wears these red boots. Shes quite tall."

We all know that actually if you just said "the Asian woman" everyone would instantly know who you're referring to. Its nonsense to not use ethnicity as a descriptor. Its one of the most immediately obvious things about a person. Its the kind of thing the faux woke do and its embarrassing.

Well said

“Couldn't have put it better myself. Definitely a woke thing and your word was very apt. It is completely 'disingenuous' and reeks of 'I'm too scared to say she's black' so why are you too scared to say she's black? What's wrong with being black?”

That’s what I think too ^

Race: Black/White/Mixed/whatever word of the day.

Ethnicity: Asian (East, South, etc), African (South West, etc), European (Eastern, Northern, etc), North American, South American, Australian, a mix of any of these.

Skin colour: Brown/black/pink/beige/white/yellow/red/however else people define their skin colour.

So are we talking race or are we talking skin colour? Because some people beg to differ when you call them black/white and claim you're talking about their skin colour if their skin colour isn't white/black.

As a descriptor, Race - no (because presumption). Skin colour (like hair colour, eye colour) - yes.

Also children don't see race, they see skin colour like every other colour. Until they've been taught to call every person with brown skin 'black' and every pale skinned person 'white', they'd typically say the colour they see which can be black, brown, pink or whatever the person looks like to them, even chocolate or bubblegum.

It's okay to point out skin colour. We're all a beautiful shade of colour.

Nationality: Indian, Chinese, American (usually for the USA), Cuban, Kenyan, Nigerian, British (can be English, Scottish, Welsh), etc and any mix of these.

In different countries, ethnicity means something else, like Han, Zhuang, Miao, etc in China; Tamil, Aryan, Punjabi, etc in India; Yoruba, Igbo, Hausa, etc in Nigeria, etc.

I've been banging on about this for years, but you really can't reliably determine a person's ethnicity (or even their race) from their skin colour anyway. My DC are mixed race. If you randomly spotted them in the street and based your viewpoint solely on what they looked like, you would probably think they were white. DS has a couple of time been questioned when he's ticked the "mixed race" box on forms as to whether he's made a mistake.

Children do not see colour. Only if it’s highlighted to them. We lived in South Africa for a time, and in Durban, there used to be certain days when whites used to congregate on the beach (very recent - talking about 2005) and other days when black people used the beach. Obviously not something stipulated, but it was just a kind of unspoken thing. I used to take my son on any day, and have a photo of my very pale skinned son splashing in the sea surrounded by dozens of black children. They all played well together, no second glances by the children at all, but the adults did make it feel uncomfortable for me and DH.

Seeing colour isn't the same as pointing it out or making a big deal out of it, which many adults do. Anyone who doesn't literally see colour may be sight-impaired.

If you ask a child who knows their colours but have never been taught about black/white/mixed to describe someone, chances are they'll say the colour of the person but it isn't always. They say what they see and sometimes the colour isn't what jumps out at them especially if it's someone who looks like every other person they see.

What you're saying is that children don't see race or make a big deal out of being different colours. They often won't point it out because it doesn't matter, unless they are trying to describe the person.

@Livelovebehappy

Children do not see colour. Only if it’s highlighted to them. We lived in South Africa for a time, and in Durban, there used to be certain days when whites used to congregate on the beach (very recent - talking about 2005) and other days when black people used the beach. Obviously not something stipulated, but it was just a kind of unspoken thing. I used to take my son on any day, and have a photo of my very pale skinned son splashing in the sea surrounded by dozens of black children. They all played well together, no second glances by the children at all, but the adults did make it feel uncomfortable for me and DH.

This is interesting. I feel that there is a bit of a culture of erasing majority voices nowadays. If you're heterosexual it seems you almost have to apologise for being 'conformist' if you're God forbid a white male - you're privelaged and only got your job because you're white and privelaged. This is equally as harmful. It seems white people are picked at for innocently using incorrect terminology without knowing e g 'black' yet white people are allowed to be labelled and segregated or shunned in quite an old fashioned way e. G disapproved of as a partner for an Indian woman (still very prevelant) and its taboo to point that out because its in the name of 'culture'. Yet if shoe was on the other foot there'd be 'racist' slapped on a white person immediately. The only 'racism' that I've ever seen on here is completely accidental uses of incorrect words. It's strange how overt words are slapped on whites and that's OK and innocent mistakes are made when referring to 'that black gentleman' and that's instantly abhorrent. Surely that's wrong too?

@drspouse

If colour truly doesn't matter surely you're being the 'fragile' one by stating you really hope there will be more black people in villages just so a majority white class doesn't have only one black child in it.

If you are a decent human being you would hope that this black child doesn't have to carry on being the only black child in their village. And colour matters because people make it matter (people who treat you differently because of the colour of your skin, better OR worse treatment) and because there is NOTHING WRONG with having brown skin, in fact it is beautiful and children with brown skin deserve to have that recognised.

Being the only white person in a situation is very different. I have been that person; I had power, money, backup, medical care, which my neighbours didn't have. Even if you personally have no more power than your neighbour (as would be the case for the child) the whole world revolves round white = powerful, black = powerless and you have that backing.

If you can't see this I am not bothering to argue more.

Let me get this straight....so in the UK you assume that the black kids in the class come from poor under privelaged backgrounds then by your comparison? What a generalisation and judgement! The people of colour at my children's school that I know are a pharmacist and a doctor. The boy that is black has two Dr's as parents. Why is there always an assumption that white people are 'privelaged' and 'superior' in these scenarios? The amount of white people that are disadvantaged is quite significant. Educationally especially (talking UK here) often Asian families see education as vital and encourage their children to achieve at school. That culture isn't as prevelant in white British families generally speaking.

No, they have a lack of privilege by virtue of the world being racist.

@drspouse

No, they have a lack of privilege by virtue of the world being racist.

That's a very broad and powerful statement. So how do you explain the majority of black and Asian Dr's in our local hospital? How do you explain the white children under achieving in education? (and that's in a majority white country!) or is it just the black and Asian countries that are racist then? But that wouldn't make sense would it? Racist against their own race? You're choosing what you want to see

@drspouse

No, they have a lack of privilege by virtue of the world being racist.

This is a massively sweeping statement to make with no evidence to back it up.