AIBU to ask how "coloured" and "of colour" differ?

[JohnAndMichaelsSister]

I've hesitated all day before posting this, because it's a sensitive subject and I don't want to offend anyone. But I need to know the answer, so as not to unintentionally offend anyone in future!

I turned on the radio this morning (Today on Radio 4) to hear that the FA chairman Greg Clarke has had to resign for using the term “coloured footballers”. Then Dame Heather Rabbatts, in talking about it, used the phrase “person of colour”.

How can “coloured” be offensive and “of colour” not be?

To me, logically, both seem offensive. Both imply that to be white is “the norm”, and lump together everyone else in the world who is of any other colour as somehow departing from this “norm”.

And any physicist will tell you that white is formed by combining all the colours of the spectrum, while black is an absence of colour. So actually it's white people who are coloured!

Yet for a while now we have been told that “... of colour” is the correct term for everyone who isn't white.

I'm in the UK, but I know that in the US the main organisation that campaigns for the rights of black people is called The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People.

So I'm totally confused. I'd like some guidance (especially from black British people - I'm white) on what is offensive and what isn't.

YANBU = “coloured” and “of colour” are as offensive or inoffensive as each other.
YABU = there really is some difference between the two terms.

@Savourysenorita

Completely agree with you. On our private hospital ward last weekend, there were 2 black and 1 Asian doctor/consultants. All of the other staff, nurses, chef, cleaners, hca’s, porter etc were white.

My view of black and Asian people are that they are high achievers and hard working. This is based purely on my personal life experience.

I find threads like this really contradictory and feel some people are being deliberately inflammatory.

Every one born outside sub Saharan Africa, unless their parents or all their grandparents etc were born there, is effectively coloured. The people that were in the first migrations interbred with Neanderthals which seems to have given us our vast array of colours. Area characteristics are through preferential breeding and fashion. Let's say a particular ruler thousands of years ago liked blue eyes and like today, where everyone tries to buy the same clothes for their children that the Duchess of C does for hers, everyone tries to find people who have blue eyes to procreate with and who are more likely to procreate because they have blue eyes themselves, blue eyed babies in the region are significantly up in numbers.
True original humans are sub Saharan humans. Even today's African American person in the US is unlikely to be totally sub Saharan due to the prevalence of slave masters raping their slaves. (Most black people taking an Ancestry test find out they have at least one "white" ancestor) All the rest of us are mixed breed to greater or lesser degrees due to hundreds of generations of othering and preference of fashion / beauty standard.
Whilst not ignoring people's lived experience of racism- It's time for it to stop.

Why is there always an assumption that white people are 'privelaged' and 'superior' in these scenarios?

They are "privileged" over non-white people in the same scenario.

A disadvantaged non-white person is in a worse position than a disadvantaged white person.

My view of black and Asian people are that they are high achievers and hard working. This is based purely on my personal life experience.

Here is my personal life experience:
I probably fit into your high achieving "black and Asian people" description. I've suffered, and continue to suffer, racism my whole life. I've had to work harder to advance than a white person would have done. The fact that some black and Asian people have done well is not proof that they are not disadvantaged, just that they are determined.
And how do you account for all the "black and Asian people" that are not high achieving?

Agree that BAME is ridulous and LGBTQI is even more ridiculous as a suggested 'community'. I'm a lesbian and have nothing in common with T, Q or I.

Does anyone else want to explain how the world is racist? Or what white privilege means?
Because I can't be bothered.

@RedskyAtnight

My view of black and Asian people are that they are high achievers and hard working. This is based purely on my personal life experience.

Here is my personal life experience:
I probably fit into your high achieving "black and Asian people" description. I've suffered, and continue to suffer, racism my whole life. I've had to work harder to advance than a white person would have done. The fact that some black and Asian people have done well is not proof that they are not disadvantaged, just that they are determined.
And how do you account for all the "black and Asian people" that are not high achieving?

In the same way that I account for all the white people who are not high achieving. Not everyone can be high achievers, some people don’t aspire as highly, some people are skilled in other ways. The world can’t be full of consultants and rocket scientists. Anyone of any race who has achieved highly will have done so through hard work and determination and that includes white people.

Treat everyone with respect and hopefully you will get the same in return. That is how I live my life. Most people I know and am drawn to and choose to be friends with are like this, no matter what their race, sexuality etc.

@drspouse

Does anyone else want to explain how the world is racist? Or what white privilege means? Because I can't be bothered.

@drspouse

Instead of explaining what white privilege is and why the world is against you, could you explain what you would like to happen going forwards from now?

In practical terms, not ideological.

We can’t do anything about what happened years ago, but we can change things going forward. Unfortunately there will always be bigoted and selfish individuals though, we’ve seen enough evidence of that through covid.

@drspouse

Does anyone else want to explain how the world is racist? Or what white privilege means? Because I can't be bothered.

I feel like that too. It’s exhausting. The data isn’t hard to find. Job applications put aside, grades underpredicted.... It’s not that there aren’t high achievers. It’s just that it’s a bigger battle and the obstacles are greater. If you are a black boy in school you have to essentially work harder than others in order to overturn prejudice and stereotypes. If you are white ( and middle class, that’s important)you are assumed to be bright and well behaved until proven otherwise hence the data around under predictions of external examination grades for lack students It’s exhausting.

black students, not lack

Yanbu it's a nonsense distinction designed to trip up anyone who hasn't just graduated from the university of wokeness.

Meanwhile in the real world, black people still refer to themselves as black, mixed race people stull refer to themselves as mixed race, and white people don't generally appear transparent.

In the US the 'National Association for the Advancement of Colored People' (NAACP), founded 1909, is a major (perhaps the major) voice of African Americans.

How do you know that everyone who's said that is white and everyone who hasn't isn't white? Does everyone have to state their race to post?

Besides aren't you the one who said on another thread that this same thing by white people is 'virtue signalling'. Now it's not a problem because it's helping you make a point. Wouldn't it also be 'virtue signalling' if poc declare their anti-whiteness (to make you feel better)?

Lots of sweeping statements being made without any evidence to back it up....

Lots of assumptions and stereotypes being made about other people being prejudiced, the irony completely lost on them....

Quite sad really.

And the current habit of “cancel culture” does nothing to encourage the debate and conversations that are sorely needed. If anything they set back race relations by 20 years.

@ Savourysenorita

Also In todays world I don't think you'll find its legal to make a person of colour work harder to achieve the same. Exams are standardised. At job interviews I think with the current climate of inclusiveness and positive discrimination and an overt consciousness of the BAME community I really don't believe those old fashioned tricks of preferring to hire a white person would be at play

A quick Google shows that all of this is, and I cannot stress this enough, bullshit of the highest order.

You may not believe that "in these days" certain things happen which put people of colour at a disadvantage. I may not believe that Tom Hardy chose to marry a woman who wasn't me; makes no odds what I believe; it only matters what the proof says and the proof says that people of colour are at a disadvantage and underrepresented in the workplace. Believe what you like. But don't be so sure of your beliefs that you're unwilling to allow evidence to show you an alternative opinion. Particularly when the evidence is so freely available.

Nothing to do with being "woke". Simply acknowledging that as a white woman working in a sector populated predominantly by white males, I've witnessed the exact ignorance you're claiming doesn't exist.

Lol...all this race relations that's being set back by 20 years, 100 years, 50 years...said by different people. Is there a race relations clock I'm unaware of and who watches it? Can someone give an accurate reading as to how far back it's actually been set?

Lol you don’t have to take things so literally!

It’s a figure of speech!

@Raceless

How do you know that everyone who's said that is white and everyone who hasn't isn't white? Does everyone have to state their race to post?

Besides aren't you the one who said on another thread that this same thing by white people is 'virtue signalling'. Now it's not a problem because it's helping you make a point. Wouldn't it also be 'virtue signalling' if poc declare their anti-whiteness (to make you feel better)?

I don't understand what point you're trying to argue against with me. I stand by what I originally said.

@FudgeBrownie2019

Also In todays world I don't think you'll find its legal to make a person of colour work harder to achieve the same. Exams are standardised. At job interviews I think with the current climate of inclusiveness and positive discrimination and an overt consciousness of the BAME community I really don't believe those old fashioned tricks of preferring to hire a white person would be at play

A quick Google shows that all of this is, and I cannot stress this enough, bullshit of the highest order.

You may not believe that "in these days" certain things happen which put people of colour at a disadvantage. I may not believe that Tom Hardy chose to marry a woman who wasn't me; makes no odds what I believe; it only matters what the proof says and the proof says that people of colour are at a disadvantage and underrepresented in the workplace. Believe what you like. But don't be so sure of your beliefs that you're unwilling to allow evidence to show you an alternative opinion. Particularly when the evidence is so freely available.

Nothing to do with being "woke". Simply acknowledging that as a white woman working in a sector populated predominantly by white males, I've witnessed the exact ignorance you're claiming doesn't exist.

That's one example. Where I work the higher qualified people are disproportionately people of colour. The lesser and unqualified people are white.

@Raceless

Lol...all this race relations that's being set back by 20 years, 100 years, 50 years...said by different people. Is there a race relations clock I'm unaware of and who watches it? Can someone give an accurate reading as to how far back it's actually been set?

It's an interesting question.

I've seen, I think, three different black academics suggest that identity politics is taking us back to a race essentialist POV, which is to say, back to the 19th century.

@Letsgetgoing888

Lol you don’t have to take things so literally!

It’s a figure of speech!

But...but...but everyone is pulling different numbers out, I thought there might be a race relations clock somewhere that could give us an accurate reading. How disappointing!

Instead of explaining what white privilege is and why the world is against you, could you explain what you would like to happen going forwards from now?
I'd like people to understand the situation we are in now. Which, sadly for you, means engaging with history and doing some research and not shouting people down when they say there is such a thing as white privilege.

I don't understand what point you're trying to argue against with me. I stand by what I originally said.

I was going to copy and paste from your post to clarify what I said but it appears to have been deleted. Not sure why.