AIBU to ask how "coloured" and "of colour" differ?

[JohnAndMichaelsSister]

I've hesitated all day before posting this, because it's a sensitive subject and I don't want to offend anyone. But I need to know the answer, so as not to unintentionally offend anyone in future!

I turned on the radio this morning (Today on Radio 4) to hear that the FA chairman Greg Clarke has had to resign for using the term “coloured footballers”. Then Dame Heather Rabbatts, in talking about it, used the phrase “person of colour”.

How can “coloured” be offensive and “of colour” not be?

To me, logically, both seem offensive. Both imply that to be white is “the norm”, and lump together everyone else in the world who is of any other colour as somehow departing from this “norm”.

And any physicist will tell you that white is formed by combining all the colours of the spectrum, while black is an absence of colour. So actually it's white people who are coloured!

Yet for a while now we have been told that “... of colour” is the correct term for everyone who isn't white.

I'm in the UK, but I know that in the US the main organisation that campaigns for the rights of black people is called The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People.

So I'm totally confused. I'd like some guidance (especially from black British people - I'm white) on what is offensive and what isn't.

YANBU = “coloured” and “of colour” are as offensive or inoffensive as each other.
YABU = there really is some difference between the two terms.

I've seen, I think, three different black academics suggest that identity politics is taking us back to a race essentialist POV, which is to say, back to the 19th century

Interesting. Do you happen to have names or video/article link please? Would like to read/hear what more these people have to say.

@drspouse

Instead of explaining what white privilege is and why the world is against you, could you explain what you would like to happen going forwards from now? I'd like people to understand the situation we are in now. Which, sadly for you, means engaging with history and doing some research and not shouting people down when they say there is such a thing as white privilege.

I prefer to look forward not backwards. I am happy to understand the situation we are in now, but with adult discussion on all sides and factual information rather than political point scoring and shooting people down for holding a different opinion.

And Mutual respect and understanding...

@Fudgebrownie2019
Because you can’t understand it doesn’t make it not true.
It’s not legal but try applying for a job with a name that might sound non traditional English. Study after study has been done on this so what you personally think is irrelevant.
Also please look up the issues with under predictions at GCSE and A level of black students. Working just as hard to get less, with real effects on university applications. Again this is hard data so what you think personally is again irrelevant.
This data is the tip of an iceberg. Some anecdotal stories about some people who are high achievers is anecdotal not data. Some professions are more mixed such as the medical profession. Many others such as journalism and law are still a face fits culture. I have two friends who have been extremely successful and made it as barristers but they are aware of the cap on how far they will go and have accepted that.
To actually argue that there are not barriers is extremely patronising and quite ignorant.

Regarding ‘white priviledge’, I think the poster above has got confused with the meaning of privilege in this context. It doesn’t mean being wealthy, having good jobs, better education etc.

In this context, it means having the default position. For example, flesh/skin coloured plasters are white/pink, (not the best example, I know).

@Standrewsschool

Regarding ‘white priviledge’, I think the poster above has got confused with the meaning of privilege in this context. It doesn’t mean being wealthy, having good jobs, better education etc.

In this context, it means having the default position. For example, flesh/skin coloured plasters are white/pink, (not the best example, I know).

Or some white people just find that term offensive?

You can find it offensive all you like, doesn't make it go away.

@Raceless

I've seen, I think, three different black academics suggest that identity politics is taking us back to a race essentialist POV, which is to say, back to the 19th century

Interesting. Do you happen to have names or video/article link please? Would like to read/hear what more these people have to say.

You could try Adolph Reed's essay, Marx, Race, and Neoliberalism. I think it's available online though you might have to look for a copy without a paywall. I think it was first published in The Marxist Moment. Reed also has some articles in less academic formats on similar topics that are worth looking at.

You could also look at this by John McWhorter - he's more of a classical liberal rather than a Marxist like Reed - he's a linguist at Columbia University.

Glen Loury also talks about this, and you might be best to look at some of his youtube discussions. Coleman Hughes. And I think Trevor Phillips may have addressed it to some extent as well.

Also In todays world I don't think you'll find its legal to make a person of colour work harder to achieve the same. Exams are standardised. At job interviews I think with the current climate of inclusiveness and positive discrimination and an overt consciousness of the BAME community I really don't believe those old fashioned tricks of preferring to hire a white person would be at play

This is incorrect. My DH is a recruiter at a top tech firm who are very progressive in their hiring policies and in fact he's the diversity specialist, he gives talks on this exact topic in the industry and is considered a knowledgable voice. There is clear evidence that factors like having a non-English name, not knowing others in the company to give positive references, not going to certain elite universities, failing on "culture fit" interviews, lacking confidence and imposter syndrome... There are a huge range of issues here. No one is suggesting a hiring manager looks at two people side by side and says I like the white one better - but it's a massively complex topic and inherent bias does exist.

Google BYP network or Color in Tech for more about the challenges.

@drspouse

You can find it offensive all you like, doesn't make it go away.

Could same the same about racism though couldn't you.

Fantastic! Thanks very much Goosefoot. I actually know about Coleman Hughes and John McWhorter from a Youtube rabbit hole I feel into last week when I came across Inaya Folarin Iman and Kmele Foster. I never really got to them but McWhorter is an English professor at Columbia university I believe.

Have just taken a quick look at the others and keen to read/watch.

I think the hostility towards the term "white privilege" isnt necessarily borne of racism. Rather -irony alert- the privileging of race issues over the other issues that people face. Ones that have sunk them or ones they've overcome, usually through sacrifice and hard work. (Not that I'm saying hard work etc is a guarantee, it's more like the lottery , if you're not in you wont win)
If you live in an area rife with crime and drugs, or your kids school is failing, or you're on a waiting list and cant get seen, your kids father doesnt contribute and theres no work ...its not colour but class thats the problem, and that too is age old. But all you hear about is how hard minorities have it, and you live in a diverse area so you know what's causing the most day to day problems for everyone in your area.
"What about me? When's my turn?"
Its not a noble impulse, but it's an understandable one, and I don't think you can disregard it. Its unrealistic to expect anyone to prioritise others issues, when they're on the bones of their arse themselves. That way resentment lies, increased tribalism and division.

Well said @7Days

@Mendocino those words were quotes from a previous poster - I quoted them to discuss how their words were inappropriate. Believe me I wasn’t quoting them in agreement.

Its not a noble impulse, but it's an understandable one, and I don't think you can disregard it. Its unrealistic to expect anyone to prioritise others issues, when they're on the bones of their arse themselves. That way resentment lies, increased tribalism and division.

That's really eloquently put @7Days And you are 100% right, in my opinion.

excellent post, 7days

I don't like the term BAME because it 'lumps' people together who are actually as diverse as the world is diverse EXCEPT it doesn't include white caucasians.

I therefore find BAME a racist concept.

I couldn't even work out what it stood for for ages (bit thick no doubt!)

Black and Muslim Ethnic?
Black African Middle Eastern?
Black And Mixed Ethnicities?
Black Asian Muslim European?
etc

the thing is, for example, Asian people are incredibly diverse too.

Why can't we just be more specific and not 'lump' everyone non-white into one non-white group?

My close friend is constantly joking about being BAME, but I think she's actually a bit hurt by it.

@7Days

I think the hostility towards the term "white privilege" isnt necessarily borne of racism. Rather -irony alert- the privileging of race issues over the other issues that people face. Ones that have sunk them or ones they've overcome, usually through sacrifice and hard work. (Not that I'm saying hard work etc is a guarantee, it's more like the lottery , if you're not in you wont win) If you live in an area rife with crime and drugs, or your kids school is failing, or you're on a waiting list and cant get seen, your kids father doesnt contribute and theres no work ...its not colour but class thats the problem, and that too is age old. But all you hear about is how hard minorities have it, and you live in a diverse area so you know what's causing the most day to day problems for everyone in your area. "What about me? When's my turn?" Its not a noble impulse, but it's an understandable one, and I don't think you can disregard it. Its unrealistic to expect anyone to prioritise others issues, when they're on the bones of their arse themselves. That way resentment lies, increased tribalism and division.

I would say you are right about the psychology behind this, but to my mind the real problem that causes that is that the whole concept of "privilege" as it's used is just wholly inadequate.

People try and get around it with intersectionalism and trying to create some giant grid that places you on a map of privilege or oppression. No only is it really impossible to to that - there are far too many social and personal factors in people's lives, many of which aren't accessible or even hierarchical.

But also, the same things can be both an advantage and a disadvantage in different settings. Is it an advantage to be second generation Asian kid in the US with a family that has high expectations. Maybe, in terms of your statistical likelihood of doing well economically and in terms of improving your social class. It might disadvantage you if you want to go to Harvard, though. Or if you happen to have been a child who struggles under pressure.

Or on a class level, white working class boys. Is that really something where we can simply say their class privilege is more powerful than their race and sex privilege? Because if you honestly look at the situation of that group, I'd suggest that all of them are very tied up together, the are more than the sum of their parts.

As a model, it's just inadequate, it's explanatory power doesn't stack up.

Oops, post above should say in the last paragraph "lack of class privilege".

I think the phrase “coloured” does have negative connotations and just because Capetonians have decided anyone that is mixed race is “coloured” does not mean it’s still acceptable use everywhere else. Also “person of colour” and BAME seem like catch-all terms so it’s seen as less offensive. Having said that I do know that whilst some people are ok to use the word “black” when they are some sort of African heritage, they same cannot said with using “brown” because Asians and minority ethnicities don’t always identify with this term. I think as previous posters have rightly pointed out that, we need to take our cue from the minority communities and see what they deem acceptable or not.

The hostility some people show towards the term 'white privilege' comes from a misunderstanding. They associate the word 'privilege' with having the good things in life, as in 'wealth and privilege'. That we know isn't the case for a white person on a deprived estate with a lot of crime, who has to use food banks.

When they go through a divorce and they have a solicitor from a BAME background who they see going home in their three year old Ford Focus to their detached house in the suburbs, they're hardly going to understand how it is that they're the ones with 'privilege' of any sort. They won't understand that the solicitor will have had to really work their butt off to get where they are and will be facing racist attitudes on a daily basis.

@Mittens030869

The hostility some people show towards the term 'white privilege' comes from a misunderstanding. They associate the word 'privilege' with having the good things in life, as in 'wealth and privilege'. That we know isn't the case for a white person on a deprived estate with a lot of crime, who has to use food banks.

When they go through a divorce and they have a solicitor from a BAME background who they see going home in their three year old Ford Focus to their detached house in the suburbs, they're hardly going to understand how it is that they're the ones with 'privilege' of any sort. They won't understand that the solicitor will have had to really work their butt off to get where they are and will be facing racist attitudes on a daily basis.

No misunderstanding from me, I know what it means, I still find it offensive.

No misunderstanding from me, I know what it means, I still find it offensive.

If you still find it offensive after Mittens’ measured explanation then that just shows your white privilege.

@stackemhigh

No misunderstanding from me, I know what it means, I still find it offensive.

If you still find it offensive after Mittens’ measured explanation then that just shows your white privilege.

Yes I do, I find it deeply offensive.

The op asked why, if coloured is not acceptable why is people of colour ok, granted not by all, but it's generally less offensive. Society has changed and words and phases have adapted to that.

White privilege is out of date and many white people, including me find it offensive. But, if we say anything we are labelled racist and the divide grows rather than heals.

Whites are allowed to take offence at words and phases used to lump us all together that cause offence.

Why can't everyone just be the same?