Access across neighbours land

[user1483782091]

Bit of a long story, my first post. Not sure if my neighbour is on here or not but I guess irrelevant. We’ve been in our house 5 years and the situation for all that time has been that we need to open and close 2 gates to get into our property, with access over the neighbours drive. Basically I drive up to their gate off the main road, open it, get back in the car, drive through, close it, walk to my gate, open it, drive through then close my gate. A nuisance but we knew it would be a pest when we bought the house. They had a little dog at the time but it was hardly ever out. Then 3 years ago they got a big woofy hound that they leave out so we invariably have to wait for them to catch the dog and put it in before we can get in or out. We can never leave either gate open, even if we’re just popping out for 5 mins in case they let their dogs out and they would either get on to the road or into our garden (we have 2 dogs). There are 2 other properties who have the same access over their drive and the same issues with the gates and dogs. The gates were never there, my neighbour installed them when their son was little with the permission of the people who had access but it was supposed to be a temporary measure. Then they got the dogs and the disputes started (before our time). They are now selling their house and we asked if they could please tell any prospective buyers that the gates would be going as they were such a nuisance for everyone and they were only ever supposed to be temporary. She agreed but is desperate to sell so basically hasn’t really mentioned it to viewers and now they have buyers who want to keep the gates as they have a dog. We, and the other neighbours found out and have written to the current neighbours and the estate agent so it’s now a dispute. She thinks we’re totally out of order and ‘shits’ for potentially jeopardizing her sale. But she’s broken promises and lied. She seems totally oblivious of the constant nuisance that they cause all the neighbours. But I don’t want to jeopardize their move I just think the gates should be gone.
What a long boring post! But she and her husband have just knocked on the door and think we’re the worst people in the world. Are we?

It’s a PITA situation but if they own the land and you have access surely they are entitled legally to use their land as they want (ie as a massive dog run ) ?

It’s selfish of them, for sure .

I bloody hate most dog owners . They are a disgrace to us good dog owners who don’t let our dogs shit, bark, and roam freely

I wouldn't worry about there being a dispute and damaging their chance to sell. It only damages the sale if the buyers aren't willing to remove the gates. So if they can find a buyer who is ok to remove the gates then they can still sell. Which is what you want.

Hmm, it doesn’t seem quite fair that you expect to have an enclosed property for your dogs, but that your neighbours can’t.

@HeddaGarbled

Hmm, it doesn’t seem quite fair that you expect to have an enclosed property for your dogs, but that your neighbours can’t.

What rot! The neighbour has enclosed safe space for their dogs - their garden!!! Their just too damned lazy to use it!!!

[quote Calmandmeasured1]In the High Court case of Kingsgate Development Projects Ltd v Jordan and Another [2017] EWHC 343 (TCC), the principle that was upheld was that there can be no substantial interference with an express right of way if the right of way can still be practically and substantially exercised as conveniently as before despite any obstruction, for example a gate. The question that courts should consider will be not whether the beneficiary of the right of way is left with a reasonable right, but whether insisting on an unrestricted right of way is reasonable. The burden is therefore on the beneficiary to show it is reasonable to insist on a right of way without the relevant obstruction.

www.fladgate.com/2017/05/rights-of-way-what-limitations-can-landowners-impose/[/quote]
In this instance, it sounds as though a case may be able to be made that access is less convenient. It is dangerous to park on a busy road to open gates without waiting for cfs to come along and grab their dogs.

Posters seem to forget that the gate was asked for as a temporary measure whilst their DC was a young child and should have been removed a few years ago...

Presumably before that there were decades/centuries of no gate...

The neighbours can't even open their own access gates to leave their properties because of the neighbours dog!

Legal advice I have just read online suggests a court order to have the gate removed is acceptable and will be fruitful.
The locked gate is classed as interference of your right to access. An offence.

See I'd like to say just start ignoring whether the dogs are out and open the gates as you come in but that would put the dogs in danger. It's a case of people essentially blackmailing others to give them something they're not entitled to by putting the safety of someone else on the line.

You did the right things starting a dispute, neighbour has essentially claimed the access road as their private garden.

I'm ignoring the gates as they arent an issue for the OP and probably legal.

The neighbours are lazy, cheeky fuckers.

They only have themselves to blame.

In as nice a way as possible, you've put up with them for too long. You've tried to be reasonable and accommodating. They've had you sitting on the main road, beeping to access your own garden , several times a day! Because they want to use the shared area and cant be bothered to put their dogs in their garden.

I can't believe you agreed to this set up when they got the dogs. I would have said at the time "yeah, I'm definitely not doing that, you're going to need to walk to your garden". But, hindsight of course.

Not a chance I would allow the sale to go through freely as the CF neighbour has lied. It's seems that it's always about them.
Their dogs, their child, their sale. So why is it unreasonable for you to represent your needs? Probably because you've been so reasonable that they now have a complete sense of entitlement.

I would most definitely be timing my exits and entrances for the most inconvenient moments. Would have DH in a car around the corner and would watch for them to let the dogs out and immediately would get DH to come to the gate. Ad nauseam. It will soon become more inconvenient to have the dogs running around in the access area and they will start to use their garden, well, as a garden.

Your neighbours are ridiculous. They think it's too much hassle to walk across the drive to put the dogs into their garden but have to come out and catch dogs several times a day EVERY time a neighbour needs to access the drive. Surely that's more bother? Unless they're trying to make a point about it being their land, but even that's a bit cutting off nose to spite face!

Hmm, it doesn’t seem quite fair that you expect to have an enclosed property for your dogs, but that your neighbours can’t.

No legal right of access exists over OP's land. Nothing to do with what she 'expects'.

YABU and short sighted. You’v created a neighbour dispute that means you are less likely, not more likely, to keep the situation as it is.

Start leaving the gates open.

Agree with pp that tempting as it is to leave the gates open, it's not fair to the dogs to put their lives at risk.

Going back to your OP, no, you're not the worst people and it serves her right for not being clear from the outset with viewers that the gates would be going.

I would hold firm and if necessary use the language described above about illegal interference with your right of way. It sounds ominous enough without having to pay for a solicitor!

They should use their garden properly and put the house on the market without gates!

If you leave the gates open you are not killing the dogs. You are simply moving the responsibility for the dogs back to the owner!

I think that the gates are legal. You can access your land, even though it's a pain in the arse. If you were to leave the gate open, knowing as you do that the dogs might get out, then the neighbour could sue you for that and claim vets fees etc from you. Not an enviable position for you!

The legal test in the case of alleged obstructions, put simply, is: "can the right of way be substantially and practically exercised as conveniently as before?" The answer in most cases is that a single unlocked gate will not normally be held to be a substantial interference.

But anything more than an unlocked gate probably will be held by the court to be a substantial interference and therefore unlawful.

Another common situation is where a neighbour who enjoys a right of way over a neighbour's driveway fails to close the gate after passing through. You have a duty not to do something which is likely to cause loss to your neighbour. Leaving the gate open may be inconvenient or indeed irritating for the land owner but if it does not cause a loss, there is no claim. The situation might be different if the gate is designed to keep livestock on the land. If the livestock were to escape and to cause a loss to the land owner, then the party leaving the gate open in those circumstances would be liable in damages to the land owner.

Quoted from the internet

Do you know anyone with a large tractor who, er, might accidentally reverse into the first set of gates?

despite everyone on here sayign that your neighbours are being unreasonable, I think they have th eupper hand under law.

I am NOT a lawyer, but my understanding is, if you own land with right of access across it, you are free to put up gates etc, as long as the people with access rigths can use them. They can be locked gates as long as you give everyone the key.

So, while it is a pain, they are allowed the gates on their land.
And you are expected to close them too.

BUT I don't think that their dogs being loose is allowing people unfettered access, so that may be the thing you can challenge.

I'd get together with neighbours to write a letter.
Wef x date we will no longer be beeping to get the gate opened. If it's closed we will open it and leave it open. Please ensure your dogs safety Etc

The gates are fine and legal they would of gotten permission to put them up just because they said temporarily doesn’t mean anything.

Your issue is the dogs, the dogs as long as they are deemed under control are perfectly legal too.

The gates must be closed after used as if the dogs did get out the op or who ever could sue for damages and any fees incurred.

People seem to forget although they have access across it is the neighbours land and frankly with the right legal permissions she could keep sheep or cows on all their land if they wanted too and as such again the gates would have to be kept closed.

Opening and closing gates does not go against access the dogs are for all intents and purposes livestock.

Your neighbours could be a bit more cooperative but it sounds like it's ultimately their land and their decision, unfortunately. You knew that when you bought the place.

I'd get together with neighbours to write a letter.
Wef x date we will no longer be beeping to get the gate opened. If it's closed we will open it and leave it open. Please ensure your dogs safety

Yes, do this.
Maybe also leave the gate open on purpose when you see that the dogs are inside, so no risk to them, but hopefully it will make them realize they can't rely on people closing the gate.

Update: we had already sent them a letter along with the other neighbours, hence the knock on the door last night and calling us shits and hurling insults.
We received a letter back from them this morning (they're both barristers) stating that the dogs will only be let out on leads (they actually took one of the dogs out for a walk this morning, only the second time I've seen them out with it, hence why they're mad) so clearly they've taken advice and we must have a point with the inconvenience of having to wait for the dogs to be put inside before we have free access. So seems to be a solution and technically we will be able to leave the gate open as the dogs will always be supervised and on a lead if they're in the access area. I don't want anymore stress or confrontation tbh, it was never our intention to scupper their sale, we just didn't want the same issue with the new owner and their dog so we were trying to nip it in the bud. Thanks for all the comments and advice, much appreciated!

Sounds like a reasonable response, glad you've got it sorted.

(Don't agree to any nonsense proposed by the new neighbours when they arrive! but start a thread if you do )