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Child maintenance

468 replies

Orinoco82 · 09/11/2020 02:49

Hi all, this is my first post on here, feels a bit strange as I’m a bloke posting on Mumsnet but there we are!

I’m basically just after some advice and other folks opinion on an issue I’m having with my daughters mum regarding the maintenance that I pay to her monthly.

I’ll try not to go on too much so here goes.

I have a daughter who is 5 years old and lives with her mum. Her mum and I separated before she was born but I have been there since day one and have always paid maintenance on time and every time without fail and I have even given extra money and lent money (which I never got back) on occasion.

I normally pay just under £500 per month maintenance to my ex but when this Coronavirus crap first hit earlier this year and the country went into the first lock down, the company I work for basically cancelled all overtime and call out which would have a substantial impact on my earnings (approx down £1200-1500 per month). As soon as I found out my earnings were going to cut, I thought it only fair that I tell my ex that her maintenance will be reducing which, although not what she wanted, she didn’t give me too hard a hard time over. I normally do a lot of overtime as I have debts that I’m trying desperately to clear and I want to provide for my daughter at the same time. I said I will give what I can and hopefully the overtime will come back and I can start giving the normal amount again. I managed to give £300 as that was all I could manage that month.

After a month or so, some overtime returned and I was able to give a little more so I raised it to £400 per month. I have also bought my daughter clothes, shoes and other bits and bobs as any parent would do.

My company has now again removed all the overtime due to this second lockdown so I thought it right that I should tell my ex straight away that again, my earnings will be going down. This time she absolutely lost the plot and went nuts at me down the phone saying that I don’t provide for my child, make no time for my child, I’m a hopeless father etc.......... none of which is true.

I love my daughter dearly, she is all I have in the world. She lives over an hours drive away from where I live and I always collect her and drop her home and I’m more than happy to do this, my ex has dropped her to me 3 times in 5 years and every time asked me for £50 fuel for doing so (which I refused). I make sure that I have at least 2 weekends off per month so I can have her and spend time with her. If I finish work on a Friday at a reasonable time, I’ll go and pick her up for the weekend. If I’m off during the week, I’ll drive all the way down to where she is to pick her up from school and take her to the park and out for some dinner then get her back home and drive home again. If she has a school play or sports day or whatever, I’ll go there, watch her and then go to work. I honestly do the best I can so I find it very hurtful when I get told that I’m a hopeless father and I don’t provide. I don’t think that’s the case at all. I may be wrong, who knows.

The other thing that has annoyed me hugely is that she borrowed a hefty (to me at least) amount of money from me and when I mentioned this to her the other day (she’s owed to me for over 2 years), she says that because I have been giving less maintenance, then I can basically go and whistle for my money which I think is wrong.

The maintenance that I give her was worked out using the CMS calculator but we haven’t involved the CMS but I have told her that I now want to go down this route as I am sick of being told I’m not giving enough so at least this way, there can be no dispute. She has told me that she doesn’t want me to do this though. Don’t know why as surely it won’t affect her.

She is always telling me how she has no money yet she refuses to look for work, has a partner that works, has another child (who she gets maintenance for also). Surely if you’re that hard up for money, you’d do everything you could to find a part time job?Maybe that’s just me?!

I could understand her being angry with me if I was giving her a pittance and driving around in a lovely car, living in a big house and wearing fancy clothes etc........ but I have none of that. Yes I’m really into my cars but I haven’t had anything nice for quite some time but that is literally my only vice. My current car is worth about £1500 tops.

I’m very sorry, I’ve been rambling (more getting things off my chest I guess). I guess the question I’m asking is, am I really in the wrong to adjust the amount of maintenance I give considering I’m now earning considerably less money? I fully intend to pay the normal amount once my earnings go back up so I’m not looking to get away with not paying it, I’m not that kind of person.

Thanks very much for taking the time to read.

OP posts:
LouJ85 · 09/11/2020 18:10

[quote MessAllOver]@LouJ85. It is far from being a helpless victim to want your child's dad to take 50% of the responsibility of parenting them.

In fact, it's the societal attitude that it's ok for dads to do very little, mums just need to step up more and pick up the pieces, which is ultimately harmful to children. No idea why we would want to encourage this for our daughters (or give our sons the idea that this is acceptable).[/quote]
He is paying £500 a month for his daughter while mum doesn't work at all. So what percentage should be increase this by to make it 50:50 financial contributions? And how do you feasibly do "50:50" care when there is significant geographical distance between RP and NRP? What if the child feels unsettled by moving between homes so frequently and would rather stay in one place more of the time for their own sense of stability (as is and was the case with my daughter)?

This idealistic 50:50 care is not always practical nor in the child's best interests.

LouJ85 · 09/11/2020 18:11

But 50:50 is really not good for DC in any sort of contested case. Family courts love it as a solution - of course they do - because they never have to deal with the actual real impact to these children.

Exactly. It's not always the answer and it isn't always in the children's best interests.

CloudyVanilla · 09/11/2020 18:13

Even if there are some posters who apparently spend more than £1k per month on one child, it is insulting to say that it is an essential amount to raise a child on. Insulting to the millions of parents who do just fine spending dramatically less than that.

And objectively based on average UK salaries we know it is not the amount the vast majority spend on their children.

Bluemooninmyeyes1 · 09/11/2020 18:14

@MessAllOver people’s circumstances change so it’s not always possible for the CMS amount to be consistent, even the CMS themselves acknowledge that which is why the amounts differ for self employed people or when people become unemployed for example. I will say though, if the OP is paying above what he is obliged to, even on the months the amount ‘lowers’ the OP’s ex is still getting more that she is entitled to, so I’m sure she’d still prefer higher inconsistent amounts rather than the CMS rate.

Help his ex get a job? Haha OP, good luck with that one! Grin

Nicknamegoeshere · 09/11/2020 18:19

50/50 was absolutely NOT in the best interests of my kids. It's had a devastating impact on us all.

LouJ85 · 09/11/2020 18:19

@Youseethethingis
I hear you! DP's exW is a total nightmare - has always expected handouts from him even when they were married (she didn't work), racked up debts when he was deployed to Afghan twice to the tune of thousands, which she then expected him to use his bonus to clear when he came home from war, committed tax credit fraud without his knowledge (claiming as a single parent while he was based away in the military sending his entire wage to her every month), spent so much of their little disposable income on herself that there was money left for fuel for him to drive home on weekends to see his kids ... and post-split has been equally as money orientated. When I first met him he was still paying off some of her debts for her!! We soon put an end to that. Oh and not to mention the demands of when he should and shouldn't have the kids (just when it's convenient for her), and if he's unable to dance to her tune she threatens to with-hold contact .... I could go on!! But I won't. Grin

Isthatitnow · 09/11/2020 18:21

It is his problem if it starts to affect his daughter negatively and leads to her living in a financially unstable home

Interesting. What of all those children living in financially unstable homes where no maintenance is paid? Do you think Social,Services should remove those children into the care of....who, exactly?

He is not immune to the effects of Covid on income and livelihood anymore than the next person is

No, but I suspect the OP would have something to say if he considered not enough was being spent on his child. It will be her mother expected to remit her finances and ensure the child has everything she needs.

Willyoujustbequiet · 09/11/2020 18:23

Please don't congratulate yourself on paying the legal minimum. It is in no way an accurate reflection of the costs involved in raising a child.

It would cost you a damn sight more in childcare if you had custody.

MessAllOver · 09/11/2020 18:30

@Isthatitnow. I meant more that the OP should care about his ex being in financial difficulties because it's likely to have an impact on his daughter's wellbeing, especially since she spends most of her time with her mum.

Like it or not, the OP and her ex (like all separated parents) are a parenting team. If one half of the team tries to screw over the other half and do the bare minimum, it's the kids who will suffer because the other parent won't be able to parent or provide as effectively.

AnneLovesGilbert · 09/11/2020 19:00

@Willyoujustbequiet

Please don't congratulate yourself on paying the legal minimum. It is in no way an accurate reflection of the costs involved in raising a child.

It would cost you a damn sight more in childcare if you had custody.

As discussed on here at length, there is no set amount for what a child costs. Are you suggesting his ex also spends £500 on just the child she shares with OP? Doubt it. He’s also got to have a property large enough to house her during his contact time, clothes, food etc.

And her mum doesn’t need childcare as she’s chosen not to work. So that’s completely irrelevant.

HugeAckmansWife · 09/11/2020 19:09

But the op is criticising her for not working so it is relevant. Some on here have said nrp dads can't win, well neither can RP mums by this logic. If she doesn't work, she's lazy and not contributing. If she does work she'll encounter not only costs of childcare (which are not always covered, if she lives with a new partner for instance), and has to juggle work and pick up etc. Unless, as others have said, the nrp is prepared to make significant changes in his own set up to balance more fairly.

LizaE · 09/11/2020 19:16

I'd look into it before going to the CMS.

They calculate on your previous year's earnings so it doesn't matter if your earnings fall now, you still have to pay the agreed rate based on last year's earnings, unless you get them to reassess, I believe.

I know someone whose overtime got stopped but they wont adjust the rate until they assess it for next year's amount apparently.

Unsure33 · 09/11/2020 20:17

As far as I can see the OP is not trying to get out of paying a fair amount . What is trying to do is stop his ex having a go going ballistic when he is doing his best.

I think in the long run she will be the one that loses out and if he does have spare money he will spend it in his daughter anyway. .

nicky7654 · 09/11/2020 20:30

I never got a penny off my ex, not even a pair of school socks! I worked part time with help from relative and would have been very grateful for financial support. You are by the sounds of it a brilliant father, and try not to be taken for.granted .

Ideasplease322 · 09/11/2020 20:35

@nicky7654

I never got a penny off my ex, not even a pair of school socks! I worked part time with help from relative and would have been very grateful for financial support. You are by the sounds of it a brilliant father, and try not to be taken for.granted .
Would you call a mum who spends £500 a month on her child, occassionally does the school pick up and sees the child every other weekend a brilliant mum?

I am sorry your ex is such a an awful human being, but we Really need to stop holding up men who parent as heros. He is a father, we have no idea of he is a brilliant father.

Carrying out the basics of parenting doesn’t make you brilliant. He may well be, but how do we know.

I know I am a broken record but the sexism on this thread, And the low bar set for men is appalling.

Ideasplease322 · 09/11/2020 20:37

Just to clarify, I am not knocking OP (although he seemed very quick to reduce child support), I am simply saying that he is doing the basics that any parent should do.

Comparing him to the lowest of the low and holding him up as this amazing person because he pays some child support and sees his child is really worrying.

Is this really what society has come to?

Ideasplease322 · 09/11/2020 20:43

£500 a month would be appropriate for a salary of about £50k.

So for someone with a take home pay of around £3k, £500 is affordable and Appropriate to gove the child e lifestyle commensurate with her dads income level.

Graphista · 09/11/2020 21:57

@Youseethethingis not all families or nrps do as your family does though, and even if they do ultimately the rp bears the majority of the costs. Even supposedly 50/50 arrangements often one parent (usually mum) is covering the costs/provision of childcare, clothes and shoes, school costs etc

Until we have genuine 50/50 arrangements as a matter of course or similarly fair Cm arrangements children will continue to lose out and rp's struggle.

A lot of posters seem overly focused on the AMOUNT op is paying rather than understanding he is paying the same proportion of his pay as any other nrp who is only paying cms MINIMUM.

Also a lot seem to be under the impression overtime doesn't count - if it's a regular occurrence meaning the nrps income is USUALLY supplemented by it then it is included in calculations. When calculating cm amount the cms take a longer term overview of the nrps income. If the overtime goes for more than a few months then the cm amount can be adjusted.

But I stand by my opinion that op/nrps just as rps have to before cutting the amount set aside FOR THEIR CHILD they first reduce other outgoings, especially luxuries.

Many rps go without to ensure their child is ok, up to and including going without basics like food. I don't think expecting nrps to review their outgoings and cut out luxuries is asking so much.

Graphista · 09/11/2020 21:57

@WattleOn My dd is an adult now and away studying. But certainly when she was still a child and home with me the costs to cover her were easily the amount being discussed here when childcare costs were a factor and I'm in a VERY cheap part of the country. When inflation, varying housing and other costs dependent on area are also accounted for it's realistic that £1000 per month to cover the costs of raising a child are probably fairly accurate.

People often don't realise how much they're spending on raising their child as the costs tend to creep up on you, and they forget things like the additional cost of utilities. My energy bill dropped by 1/3 when Dd moved out and she didn’t do anything excessive.

Do a comparison using the size of property you'd have if the child were not to exist and also include reduction in council tax & utilities, then of course all the more obvious ones like food, clothes, shoes, transport, furniture, furnishings... all the stuff I mentioned and usually more and you’ll find it soon adds up.

I've had this discussion on here before and when people have actually done a black and white list of how much they spend on their dc including additional housing costs etc they're shocked.

Because we don't normally list or add these things up separately.

Eg clothes - as an adult I'm no longer growing so the same items of clothing of cared for can last me years even decades, but while a child is growing they can need a whole new wardrobe approx every 3-6 months but we don't notice it so much as we tend to do it gradually.

@laudete I think that's entirely possible. It's really hard to budget if you don't have a definite amount coming in at the same time each month.

Graphista · 09/11/2020 21:58

but I do think there are too many women that solely rely on their ex-partners to provide for their kids 😂😂😂 yea that’s complete and utter nonsense!

MOST nrps are fathers and a HUGE number of them don’t pay any cm at all and even the ones that do are usually paying woefully low amounts (even when paying the amount calculated by cms) and are often inconsistent. They DEFINITELY don’t pay enough to cover ALL the child’s costs at the rp home!

Latest figures according to cms (so just the cases they know of, back when cm was included for benefits calculations the csa as was had more accurate stats as a result) are that around 1/3 of nrps don’t pay any maintenance at all, a further approx 25% don’t pay in full or consistently.

This was pre covid and there’s apparently been a huge surge in nrps just stopping payments altogether and cms NOT pursuing them to even find out if they definitely are no longer supposed to be paying. An ongoing issue with cms is they very often simply believe nrps when they say they’re unemployed or self employed and earning very little WITHOUT cms even attempting to verify via dwp or hmrc.

Various charities have been raising this with the govt but not getting very far!

If you really want to provide for your child and not rely solely on your ex.

But @LouJ85 you’re not describing any exes who SOLELY provide for their dc you’re describing nrps who at best CONTRIBUTE to the costs of providing for their dcs. I very much doubt unless your partner’s on a very high income and paying a very high amount of cm that he is SOLELY providing for his dc.

The load's been mostly on you, as it is for a lot of women. exactly

Just as we rps are accused of responding based on our experience of our deadbeat exes so are the nrps and their subsequent wives/partners guilty of basing their opinions on their experiences.

Graphista · 09/11/2020 21:59

Not the case in my own personal example as my exes 2nd wife is mostly a decent person and indeed pushed ex in the early days to see dd and to pay cm, after learning from me that he wasn’t and he’d been telling her he was she had a right go at him! Sadly he soon even ignored her on the issue.

But I’m very aware of cases where the subsequent wife/partner begrudges the cm paid. I’ve let friendships go as a result of such attitudes.

One former friend bitched that they couldn’t afford a 4th child because of cm rules meaning they couldn’t AGAIN reduce the amount of cm paid as they had for each existing child of their 3 children. They absolutely could afford it they were very well off, they just didn’t want to not be able to reduce payments again and begrudged the amount he already was paying.

Personally I think this rule sucks! Older children shouldn’t be seen as having lesser needs simply because the nrp chooses to have more dc.

but there is no reason why, when a child has two parents, the mum/resident parent should bear most of the burden of raising that child. It should be spread equally between the parents. exactly!

Graphista · 09/11/2020 22:00

Yes, single parents can get by without help from the other parent. They can do it on their own. But why should they have to? yet quite a few posters on this thread seem to think that because they suffered that means others should too. I don’t understand that thinking at all!

My ex was a nightmare on this, my dd is now an adult but I still want better for other rps who are usually women AND their dc. So I still comment and campaign on the issue.

Graphista · 09/11/2020 22:00

Where on earth does this notion come from that non resident parent will also pay half the childcare costs on top of maintenance?! The payments I received from my ex never changed regardless of my childcare costs! I don’t think anyone is saying they WOULD have to more they SHOULD have to.

If the nrp is working that is because despite being a parent they are usually not impacted by childcare costs or having to make the arrangements or having to refuse overtime because they have to collect child from childcare... That all falls on the rp.

non residents fathers get a disproportionately hard time on here. please do explain how it’s “disproportionate” when statistically we know that the majority:

Don’t pay cm or under pay and pay inconsistently

Within 5 years as many as half of all nrps according to some sources are no longer or barely in contact with their dc. As little as 20% are in contact with them regularly by the time they’re high school age.

He can’t keep up everything with less money. no but I’d be VERY interested in knowing details of his outgoings and whether he first looked to cutting out luxuries etc

When complaining about childcare/schools shutting etc., women are regularly told to suck it up, that's part of being a parent.

Yep!

Graphista · 09/11/2020 22:01

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EMJuah5rAZg

Divorce makes men significantly richer. It makes women and children significantly poorer.

The OP can work the hours he does because his ex facilitates him. If she was run down by a bus and he had to have his DD full-time, life would be a lot, lot more difficult for him.

This is essentially what happened with my brother, though he was pretty close to an equal father before his ex died, when he then became a lone parent with care it did mean he was better able to understand how hard it is for nrps with unsupportive or absent exes.

I genuinely don't understand what he would have to do above and beyond what's he's doing, to be upgraded from just better than a shit dad, to a good one?

1 pay a realistic amount of child maintenance, regularly and consistently without begrudging it

2 see his dd more, we also don’t know what he’s like when he does see her, is he at the extreme end of “Disney dad” playing “lord bountiful” and being the “fun” parent who doesn’t bother with rules, discipline etc? No way to know. He could also be available to cover sickness etc

3 support his ex if she so wished to return to work by being equally responsible for the necessary childcare either financially or practically or a combination

He supports his daughter in accordance with the legally obligated amount

The law isn’t always right or fair remember.

Graphista · 09/11/2020 22:02

I just chose to never see myself as such. (a victim). Not being treated unfairly, being able to work, go to uni etc is not merely an act of will. You have been fortunate to have the circumstances to be able to do all that.

I was too at one point.

When ex and I first split I was quickly able to find a full time job and good childcare - but the economy was doing much better at this time (almost 20 years ago now)

I then as you did decided to return to uni with a view to going into a career that would make mine and dds life that bit easier and increase my income - again circumstances then were easier than they are now for potential single mum students, there’s been HUGE changes in funding for starters.

I then was involved in a serious car accident which left me disabled - though the worst effects weren’t immediately apparent and even now I don’t have a firm dx as in different specialists disagree on the exact nature of the condition. The stress of the accident including the economic effects (difficulties with insurer partly as other driver who was at fault wasn’t insured) plus the cumulative effects of various other stressors came to bear resulted in a psychotic/depressive breakdown. The accident was the catalyst but not the whole story.

I was unable to work at that time and was being assessed and treated for both the physical and psychological issues, but even so as someone who had worked since 14, full time since 16 excepting uni and mat leave I was eager to get a job and earn. Too eager as it turned out. I managed for around 18 months and then a few things happened which meant things became more difficult, this included a new boss who was aware of my mh issues and used them to play some seriously fucked up psychological games. Around the same time my physical condition caused me to take a bad fall at work, which worsened this too.

I’ve been unable to work since, though I have at times (this is part of my main condition I can get over ambitious and develop unrealistic ideas of what I am capable of, but also means I am more susceptible than others to succumbing to societal pressure to not be a “dole bludger”) and so have applied for jobs and voluntary positions when if I were being truly objective and realistic I’d be unable to sustain any such commitment unless the employers were very flexible.

Not everyone’s circumstances are the same, plus people’s circumstances, abilities and capability to cope with certain situations vary greatly.

Therefore it’s possible the reason she is not working is more due to the age and cost of the second child which is nothing to do with OP in my opinion yes but arguably he also benefits from her not working as his child is not in childcare and he isn’t expected eg to cover half of school holidays

it could be a lot worse

Women throughout history have been told to shut up and accept their lot on the basis of this.

Yep and it is and always has been a pointless argument!

If OP thinks his ex has it cushy he can always go for 50:50 yea funny how so few nrps seem to fancy that eh?

She has a partner they’re not legally or morally responsible for this child!

But it’s a fallacy to say 50/50 makes it even. It doesn’t.

This!

Because in most cases it ONLY applies to the time spent with the child and even then tends to only mean the time they’re not in school or childcare. The costs tend to still fall onto usually mum who is also usually the lower earner, often because they are bearing the brunt of childcare clashes with working hours! I’ve known of a fair few supposedly 50/50 arrangements where it merely means the dad is seeing the child 2-3 evenings a week but not having them overnight every time, eow, not paying for school uniform, equipment, clubs, childcare (even when it’s supposedly “their” day) etc so they’re not REALLY 50/50 the dads just are seeing the dc a bit more

When I first split from ex I told him he could see and have dd whenever he wanted, he wasn’t interested, he turned up the Saturday after split 4 hours later than he said he’d be, stayed half an hour then left as he’d made plans to go out with ow. I learned later he was telling everyone on “his” side of things that I was massively restricting his access to Dd which was complete bollocks! He never reliably or consistently improved.

@Yartothenar I know a few single dads, yes unusual and I agree nrp mothers can and are just as bad as fathers who are nrps, but generally speaking our society, culture and laws are set up where it’s mostly fathers.

especially if in council/HA housing where the rent is covered in full. good grief! This is the level of ignorance and misinformation we’re dealing with! These homes are NOT rent free! Many in social housing are in work and pay rent just like everyone else! Even the amounts are often not a huge amount cheaper if at all in comparison to private rents, areas differ.

Why does this matter if he worked it out using the CMS calculator? because a lot of posters on the thread are seeing the amount alone and thinking this means op is generous. When actually it looks like this was based on a likely regular (even though officially “overtime” and that sounds fairly dubious anyway as there are regs around overtime for taxes, health and safety etc) income of in excess of £4000 a month. It skews perspectives. If he’d posted without stating the amount but simply stating he paid the cms minimum this thread would likely have gone VERY differently

Why would she expect payment for taking care of her own child?

Why should HE be able to work full time completely free of having to consider let alone pay for his child’s care while he is at work? At least for 50 % of the time as he is 50% responsible for the child?

the RP is effectively providing free childcare for the 35% (approx) of the time that the child SHOULD be with the nrp exactly excellent post

You're being deliberately obtuse. I completely agree

It is far from being a helpless victim to want your child's dad to take 50% of the responsibility of parenting them.