Child maintenance

[Orinoco82]

Hi all, this is my first post on here, feels a bit strange as I’m a bloke posting on Mumsnet but there we are!

I’m basically just after some advice and other folks opinion on an issue I’m having with my daughters mum regarding the maintenance that I pay to her monthly.

I’ll try not to go on too much so here goes.

I have a daughter who is 5 years old and lives with her mum. Her mum and I separated before she was born but I have been there since day one and have always paid maintenance on time and every time without fail and I have even given extra money and lent money (which I never got back) on occasion.

I normally pay just under £500 per month maintenance to my ex but when this Coronavirus crap first hit earlier this year and the country went into the first lock down, the company I work for basically cancelled all overtime and call out which would have a substantial impact on my earnings (approx down £1200-1500 per month). As soon as I found out my earnings were going to cut, I thought it only fair that I tell my ex that her maintenance will be reducing which, although not what she wanted, she didn’t give me too hard a hard time over. I normally do a lot of overtime as I have debts that I’m trying desperately to clear and I want to provide for my daughter at the same time. I said I will give what I can and hopefully the overtime will come back and I can start giving the normal amount again. I managed to give £300 as that was all I could manage that month.

After a month or so, some overtime returned and I was able to give a little more so I raised it to £400 per month. I have also bought my daughter clothes, shoes and other bits and bobs as any parent would do.

My company has now again removed all the overtime due to this second lockdown so I thought it right that I should tell my ex straight away that again, my earnings will be going down. This time she absolutely lost the plot and went nuts at me down the phone saying that I don’t provide for my child, make no time for my child, I’m a hopeless father etc.......... none of which is true.

I love my daughter dearly, she is all I have in the world. She lives over an hours drive away from where I live and I always collect her and drop her home and I’m more than happy to do this, my ex has dropped her to me 3 times in 5 years and every time asked me for £50 fuel for doing so (which I refused). I make sure that I have at least 2 weekends off per month so I can have her and spend time with her. If I finish work on a Friday at a reasonable time, I’ll go and pick her up for the weekend. If I’m off during the week, I’ll drive all the way down to where she is to pick her up from school and take her to the park and out for some dinner then get her back home and drive home again. If she has a school play or sports day or whatever, I’ll go there, watch her and then go to work. I honestly do the best I can so I find it very hurtful when I get told that I’m a hopeless father and I don’t provide. I don’t think that’s the case at all. I may be wrong, who knows.

The other thing that has annoyed me hugely is that she borrowed a hefty (to me at least) amount of money from me and when I mentioned this to her the other day (she’s owed to me for over 2 years), she says that because I have been giving less maintenance, then I can basically go and whistle for my money which I think is wrong.

The maintenance that I give her was worked out using the CMS calculator but we haven’t involved the CMS but I have told her that I now want to go down this route as I am sick of being told I’m not giving enough so at least this way, there can be no dispute. She has told me that she doesn’t want me to do this though. Don’t know why as surely it won’t affect her.

She is always telling me how she has no money yet she refuses to look for work, has a partner that works, has another child (who she gets maintenance for also). Surely if you’re that hard up for money, you’d do everything you could to find a part time job?Maybe that’s just me?!

I could understand her being angry with me if I was giving her a pittance and driving around in a lovely car, living in a big house and wearing fancy clothes etc........ but I have none of that. Yes I’m really into my cars but I haven’t had anything nice for quite some time but that is literally my only vice. My current car is worth about £1500 tops.

I’m very sorry, I’ve been rambling (more getting things off my chest I guess). I guess the question I’m asking is, am I really in the wrong to adjust the amount of maintenance I give considering I’m now earning considerably less money? I fully intend to pay the normal amount once my earnings go back up so I’m not looking to get away with not paying it, I’m not that kind of person.

Thanks very much for taking the time to read.

@PizzaForOne

The mother sounds like a pain.

Don't lend her more money. Accept you won't get what you've already lent her back.
If you truly cannot afford to keep up the usual payments, don't get into debt over it. If you can, keep them up. As long as she is not refusing contact (although suspect this might be pulled soon) just stick to your argument.
CMS - yes they will calculate and you have that protection. But they only adjust the figure if your gross salary increases or falls by more than 20%. If your overtime is less than 20% of your gross salary therefore, in these lockdowns they would not have changed the amount you are due to pay because of the company's decision not to pay overtime.

50-50 suggestions sound unreasonable because of the distance and your child going to school.

She has a working partner and another child she received maintenance for, plus potentially some benefits on top (dependent on partners income) - I think you are fair in suggesting she could work part time, dependent on the children's ages.

Regardless of what posters say on here £500 on top of partners income/other maintenance/any benefits is a lot and I'm sure its probably paying for a number of luxuries in their lives. Many mothers live off benefits only and, in my experience from people I know, do not have financial issues and live relatively comfortably - especially if in council/HA housing where the rent is covered in full.

Absolutely, a parent with one child and a mortgage would be entitled to £590 a month full stop. So the ex compared to this is literally rolling in money!

50-50 suggestions sound unreasonable because of the distance and your child going to school.

I completely agree. Common sense and logistics have to prevail at some point. My daughter's dad lives a couple hours drive away and her school is here where I live, so there's no way I'd expect either her or him to do sort of travel half the week - it makes literally no sense to me when I live a matter of miles from her school. Those talking about what's in the best interests of the little girl concerned- do they really think 2 hours of travel to and from school for half the week is what she would want?? I know my daughter would have hated that.

You don't say what you earn and I think that's very relevant. I think for CBS to be so much you are paid a lot? You dropped the amount by 40 percent.of course that's going to have an impact. Did you overlook at the calculator to decide how much to drop the payment by? If not, why not?

Why should CMS look at overtime?

What % of your income was the original £500?

busdriver because the nrp is free to go and earn it whilst his child is being cared for, for free, by rp. This is what I was getting at Solomummy- and hello by the way, from other threads. I don't choose to work non school hours. I couldn't afford a mortgage and things like activities and music lessons for the kids if I didn't, as my ex pays cms only and no 'extras'. He and I do the same job. I did work fewer hours when the kids were younger and got castigated for my lazy, 'part time' life. In 6 years he hasn't done a school run, been pulled out of work for a sick or injured kid, had to cut corners in his own professional life, ask for favours from colleagues or anything else and that is 100% facilitated by me. I would LOVE him to do 50/50 but he never wanted it and moved far enough way to make it impossible. So I do take umbrage with those saying the op is doing all he could reasonably do. He's doing what fits in with his life.

What % of your income was the original £500?

Why does this matter if he worked it out using the CMS calculator? If it's worked out on the calculator then it's the amount she is entitled to.

...his child is being cared for, for free, by rp.

Eh? The RP is the child's mother! Why would she expect payment for taking care of her own child? Unless I've misunderstood what on Earth this is supposed to mean?!

@LouJ85
I think PPs point is that for the ex to get the level of childcare she would need to work the same hours OP does, she would have to pay for it (Breakfast club, after school, holiday club etc etc)
He doesn’t have that cost because the child is with her other parent.

You sound brilliant compared to my ex. He pays zero, and hasn't bought the dc a pair of shoes or a stitch of clothing since the day they were born. He sees them every other weekend, but tits around a lot and cancels plans at the last minute.

Hope you get things sorted officially.

It's perfectly simple lou. The child is 50% the responsibility of each parent. Except that in cases where the nrp chooses to only see their child 4/26 days that leaves about 85% of the care in the hands of the RP. Whether they stop or reduce earning to cover that extra 35% or pay for childcare, they are covering for the nrp during that time. Obviously tha happens in many many married or cohabiting families and that's fine, because the parent doing the care benefits from far more than the cms % of the earners wage. But when the couple is split, then the RP is effectively providing free childcare for the 35% (approx) of the time that the child SHOULD be with the nrp and the nrp can if they choose, use that time to climb the career ladder, save a pension, have a life, all of which are effectively provided by the RP.

@HugeAckmansWife

It's perfectly simple lou. The child is 50% the responsibility of each parent. Except that in cases where the nrp chooses to only see their child 4/26 days that leaves about 85% of the care in the hands of the RP. Whether they stop or reduce earning to cover that extra 35% or pay for childcare, they are covering for the nrp during that time. Obviously tha happens in many many married or cohabiting families and that's fine, because the parent doing the care benefits from far more than the cms % of the earners wage. But when the couple is split, then the RP is effectively providing free childcare for the 35% (approx) of the time that the child SHOULD be with the nrp and the nrp can if they choose, use that time to climb the career ladder, save a pension, have a life, all of which are effectively provided by the RP.

Interestingly, meanwhile, as a RP to my daughter for many years, I did indeed manage to climb the career ladder and now earn substantially more than her dad does. If you want something badly enough it can be done. It's hard work and it's sacrifice- but with a work ethic and determination, it's very doable. I'm living proof.

@LouJ85. You're being deliberately obtuse. Clearly while the mum is caring for the child, she can't also be working. So there is a huge opportunity cost to the mum that the dad doesn't have. But I suspect you understand very well what @HugeAckmansWife is saying (very clearly).

It's this opportunity cost that results in many single parents being unable to work their way towards a more financially secure life. So failure to recognise it is pernicious, unjust and harmful to children.

[quote Youseethethingis]@LouJ85
I think PPs point is that for the ex to get the level of childcare she would need to work the same hours OP does, she would have to pay for it (Breakfast club, after school, holiday club etc etc)
He doesn’t have that cost because the child is with her other parent.[/quote]
So let's say she was motivated to get herself a job (which we have very little evidence of thus far) and let's say she wanted some free time to do overtime and earn more. Dad agrees to drop his overtime and takes care of DD so mum can do this. Her CMS would then drop because of the loss of Dad's overtime, would it not? And based on the OP's description of her response to that happening, I can't see it being met with a happy response from her!

Point being - NR dads just can't win. If they earn extra via overtime and pay more to mum, sod that, they should be looking after their kid more so mum can earn instead (despite no evidence in this case that she wants to); conversely if Dad gives up his overtime and therefore his extra cash, thus needing to pay less to mum, he's now a dick for lowering his CM payments and he's accused of not being "consistent " with his payments etc etc...

God this thread is depressing. The amount of women telling this man was an amazing parent he is because he sees his child And pays child support is shocking. It really depressed me that he spoke about picking his child up from school as of it made him father of year. Is the bar for dads really that low?

That’s not be an amazing parent, that’s being a parent.

No one here know what exactly he earns, however the cams calculator is the minimum, so I’m not sure why people are falling Over themselves to congratulate him.

He sounds like his normal salary is healthy enough, I am Puzzled that he didn’t have savings which allowed his to keep up the child support for a few months.

[quote MessAllOver]**@LouJ85. You're being deliberately obtuse. Clearly while the mum is caring for the child, she can't also be working. So there is a huge opportunity cost to the mum that the dad doesn't have. But I suspect you understand very well what @HugeAckmansWife is saying (very clearly).

It's this opportunity cost that results in many single parents being unable to work their way towards a more financially secure life. So failure to recognise it is pernicious, unjust and harmful to children.[/quote]
I'm not going to respond to accusations of how I am and am not being, because I can assure you I am not being obtuse. I am pointing out that being a RP and choosing to see yourself as something other than a helpless victim who is owed a living by the NRP can get you and your child places. I'm proof of this, as I keep saying.

Re the 50/50 argument and travel. Well as a parent you have to make sacrifices to make it work. The Courts ruled 50/50 so in order to make that work my ex and I will have no choice but to remain living relatively near to each other. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to move as far away from him as possible, fresh start and so on, but my kids come first.

I am far from a helpless victim. I have rebuilt a life and actually long term have more security than my ex, but my day to day life NOW is far more difficult than his. Also, you have one child. I have two, very different kids who are rarely interested in the same things or hobbies.hence a tricky 3 way split and a bed for a third bedroom. If I only needed 2, I could have made v different choices and would need nothing from ex at all. But even if that were true, why should he NOT pay for his kids, a fair 50% share? We planned and made them together.

@HugeAckmansWife

I am far from a helpless victim. I have rebuilt a life and actually long term have more security than my ex, but my day to day life NOW is far more difficult than his. Also, you have one child. I have two, very different kids who are rarely interested in the same things or hobbies.hence a tricky 3 way split and a bed for a third bedroom. If I only needed 2, I could have made v different choices and would need nothing from ex at all. But even if that were true, why should he NOT pay for his kids, a fair 50% share? We planned and made them together.

I never said a NRP shouldn't pay for his child and I don't think you'll see that comment from me anywhere on this thread. I said the OP is getting an unnecessarily hard time when he pays quite a substantial amount and also makes what seem like very reasonable efforts to see his daughter. It's a lot more than many men do. And I also said that it is entirely possible to be a resident parent and pursue a career if someone wants to. Granted it may be harder with 2 children. I can only speak from my own experience.

@LouJ85. It is far from being a helpless victim to want your child's dad to take 50% of the responsibility of parenting them.

In fact, it's the societal attitude that it's ok for dads to do very little, mums just need to step up more and pick up the pieces, which is ultimately harmful to children. No idea why we would want to encourage this for our daughters (or give our sons the idea that this is acceptable).

I can't remember a time where I've spent a thousand pounds in one month on my child

Good for you. I know I have, and more

@WithoutATtrace @BullshitVivienne what horrible posts. Shame on you.

@LouJ85
Oh I’m right there with you, don’t worry.
My DH ex wanted him to:

• drop his hours to take DSD more, in a sort of after school childminder capacity as and when required
• pay her more maintenance (he has always “overpaid” although i don’t like the word in relation to paying for your own child)
• not let him have DSD during holidays as that was her “quality time” and she wanted him to give her money for holiday club
• not let him see DSD on Christmas Day or over holidays as that’s “magical time as a family”

There’s no winning with some people 🤷‍♀️

I just did a little exercise and worked out how much my 3 dc cost me. It was interesting!

I got £620 per month, including £200 on each birthday and £250 on each for Christmas, 2 days out month, groceries, extra bills and every essential I could think of. I personally did not include housing as we only have a 2 bedroom house, but even if we spent an extra £200 a month for a bigger house they is only £820 a month.

There is no way in hell that £500 is not adequate to cover 50% of one childs needs.

@Waxonwaxoff0

Or alternatively, the OP could offer 50/50 custody and then he wouldn't need to pay maintenance at all, then the ex could get a job working around that.

That's exactly the crap my ex pulled. That is long after he continued working in his very high 6-figure salary and I had given up my good job to deal with school run (nursery is easy - school less so). I have never been able to return to work at what I was earning before DC. My ex even now calculates time precisely to the minute. The only silver lining in that cloud is that DC hate it - and are now old enough to decide what they want to do. But 50:50 is really not good for DC in any sort of contested case. Family courts love it as a solution - of course they do - because they never have to deal with the actual real impact to these children.

I think this dad is making a really good effort. Well done. Keep it up - as others have said the CMS is minimum that most RPs dont even receive.