Child maintenance

[Orinoco82]

Hi all, this is my first post on here, feels a bit strange as I’m a bloke posting on Mumsnet but there we are!

I’m basically just after some advice and other folks opinion on an issue I’m having with my daughters mum regarding the maintenance that I pay to her monthly.

I’ll try not to go on too much so here goes.

I have a daughter who is 5 years old and lives with her mum. Her mum and I separated before she was born but I have been there since day one and have always paid maintenance on time and every time without fail and I have even given extra money and lent money (which I never got back) on occasion.

I normally pay just under £500 per month maintenance to my ex but when this Coronavirus crap first hit earlier this year and the country went into the first lock down, the company I work for basically cancelled all overtime and call out which would have a substantial impact on my earnings (approx down £1200-1500 per month). As soon as I found out my earnings were going to cut, I thought it only fair that I tell my ex that her maintenance will be reducing which, although not what she wanted, she didn’t give me too hard a hard time over. I normally do a lot of overtime as I have debts that I’m trying desperately to clear and I want to provide for my daughter at the same time. I said I will give what I can and hopefully the overtime will come back and I can start giving the normal amount again. I managed to give £300 as that was all I could manage that month.

After a month or so, some overtime returned and I was able to give a little more so I raised it to £400 per month. I have also bought my daughter clothes, shoes and other bits and bobs as any parent would do.

My company has now again removed all the overtime due to this second lockdown so I thought it right that I should tell my ex straight away that again, my earnings will be going down. This time she absolutely lost the plot and went nuts at me down the phone saying that I don’t provide for my child, make no time for my child, I’m a hopeless father etc.......... none of which is true.

I love my daughter dearly, she is all I have in the world. She lives over an hours drive away from where I live and I always collect her and drop her home and I’m more than happy to do this, my ex has dropped her to me 3 times in 5 years and every time asked me for £50 fuel for doing so (which I refused). I make sure that I have at least 2 weekends off per month so I can have her and spend time with her. If I finish work on a Friday at a reasonable time, I’ll go and pick her up for the weekend. If I’m off during the week, I’ll drive all the way down to where she is to pick her up from school and take her to the park and out for some dinner then get her back home and drive home again. If she has a school play or sports day or whatever, I’ll go there, watch her and then go to work. I honestly do the best I can so I find it very hurtful when I get told that I’m a hopeless father and I don’t provide. I don’t think that’s the case at all. I may be wrong, who knows.

The other thing that has annoyed me hugely is that she borrowed a hefty (to me at least) amount of money from me and when I mentioned this to her the other day (she’s owed to me for over 2 years), she says that because I have been giving less maintenance, then I can basically go and whistle for my money which I think is wrong.

The maintenance that I give her was worked out using the CMS calculator but we haven’t involved the CMS but I have told her that I now want to go down this route as I am sick of being told I’m not giving enough so at least this way, there can be no dispute. She has told me that she doesn’t want me to do this though. Don’t know why as surely it won’t affect her.

She is always telling me how she has no money yet she refuses to look for work, has a partner that works, has another child (who she gets maintenance for also). Surely if you’re that hard up for money, you’d do everything you could to find a part time job?Maybe that’s just me?!

I could understand her being angry with me if I was giving her a pittance and driving around in a lovely car, living in a big house and wearing fancy clothes etc........ but I have none of that. Yes I’m really into my cars but I haven’t had anything nice for quite some time but that is literally my only vice. My current car is worth about £1500 tops.

I’m very sorry, I’ve been rambling (more getting things off my chest I guess). I guess the question I’m asking is, am I really in the wrong to adjust the amount of maintenance I give considering I’m now earning considerably less money? I fully intend to pay the normal amount once my earnings go back up so I’m not looking to get away with not paying it, I’m not that kind of person.

Thanks very much for taking the time to read.

Almost exactly the same situation here with me aside the fact I'm the woman in all this and my child's father did not up his reduction when his situation changed back for the better. If how you have put it is the truth then I think you have behaved more than fairly here and I do agree with others that CMS would probably be the best way for you to go. The only thing if you pay via them is you have to pay an additional 4% as a fee to them (from what I have researched this does not come out of the receiving parents amount).

it could be a lot worse

Women throughout history have been told to shut up and accept their lot on the basis of this.

It could be a lot better. If caring responsibilities weren't consistently denigrated and undervalued as "women's work" and responsibility for caring was distributed equally amongst men and women.

@WattleOn

A few things:

1. The CMS is the bare minimum and a decent parent will willing pay more towards their child’s care.
2. Who calculated the amount of maintenance to be paid? Unless you are earning shitloads, I think 500quid a month is pretty decent. Use the online calculator yourself to figure what is correct (and remember that ‘correct’ = bare minimum)
3. Continue to pay the correct amount as calculated by your current income (and increase/decrease it when your salary increases/decreases).
4. Pay more than the CMS amount via bank transfer to ensure a record and label it as ‘additional child support’. Also continue to buy things your daughter needs directly.
5. Keep records of and texts/emails/conversations about the loan. You could take her to small claims court if you wanted but as the mother of your child, perhaps you should be more willing to write it off in the knowledge that it would have helped your child in some way (although possibly not as much as you would want).
6. Never loan money again.
7. Consider getting a four order to solidify access arrangements. Nothing in your post screams Disney Dad to me.

This is a very fair post and good advice

OP, the only comment I have for you is that you sound decent enough, but CMS is notoriously benevolent to the Non-Resident Parent, so I don't really think you are being incredibly generous with the child maintenance.

As for the stupid bunch of mumsnetters falling over themselves to say that you should pay less because their children get less, this is not a race to the bottom.

By your logic, as there are children starving in Yemen, there is no need to feed your own children.

@Coyoacan

OP, the only comment I have for you is that you sound decent enough, but CMS is notoriously benevolent to the Non-Resident Parent, so I don't really think you are being incredibly generous with the child maintenance.

As for the stupid bunch of mumsnetters falling over themselves to say that you should pay less because their children get less, this is not a race to the bottom.

By your logic, as there are children starving in Yemen, there is no need to feed your own children.

Agree too with this in that we have no idea what OP earns. My husband paid 1/2 of this plus contributions to trips, buying clothes etc. But then he wasnt earning anywhere near what I do now so if we split and I was non resident, my sum would be much more.

You sound like a good guy to me .I think a lot of the girls on here have had their fingers burnt by Deadbeat Dads ,who find all sorts of reasons not to pay TBH! A friend of ours has 2 girls, their dad is a Millionaire! Doesnt want to pay hardly anything at all! I would pack in "lending" her more money for a start! Call CMS and see what they say.Good luck!

@Coyoacan

OP, the only comment I have for you is that you sound decent enough, but CMS is notoriously benevolent to the Non-Resident Parent, so I don't really think you are being incredibly generous with the child maintenance.

As for the stupid bunch of mumsnetters falling over themselves to say that you should pay less because their children get less, this is not a race to the bottom.

By your logic, as there are children starving in Yemen, there is no need to feed your own children.

I agree.

If OP thinks his ex has it cushy he can always go for 50:50

I think it depends what you earn surely? If you are on a grand a month then £500 and a drop to reflect is more than reasonable.

If you’re on £4K a month then it’s absolute peanuts and you should be paying more, or am I being a simplistic arse.

In terms of EOW and the odd weekday, it’s a lot more than a lot of dads, and a lot less than her mum has to do so...

My kids dad has never paid a dime, barely sees them and I am in full time employment, so yes she absolutely could get a job and age of her other child really isn’t relevant. But her having a job or not shouldn’t make any difference to your contribution for your child. I earn in excess of £4K per month now so my ex seems to think it lets him off the hook.

Every penny goes on the kids and maintaining the home for them and childcare and all the rest, granted I have 3 but they are bloody expensive so in reality £500 isn’t a lot.

The easy solution to this is when a split happens 50/50 residency should be awarded as standard. This will take the money element away first. Child maintenance should be for clothes, food etc. Both NRP and RP will in theory have similar size houses , utility bills would be similar.

There should be greater punishment for NRPs who do not look after there children and this should all be ratified through court.

Some women are just greedy cunts. Dont lend her any more money, if you have it in writing even by text she owes you money then take her to court. Just pay the CMS amount or go through them instead.

She has a partner, she has other income. I doubt very much she matches your £500. It dont cost a grand a month to feed, house or support a child

@MessAllOver I’m not sure what your feminist ramblings have got to do with the OP’s circumstances? He’s came on here asking for practical advice, not to be guilt tripped about the sexual division of labour. So do you have any useful advice or not?

If OP thinks his ex has it cushy he can always go for 50:50
Funny how it is always assumed that the father never wants this. Yet we have a,poster just page ago who took her to court, got 50/50 and seems to be managing very well, still able to work in his high income job.

I think some fathers are indeed happy with eow at most, but many fathers would be very happy with 50/50 but are not given the chance by their ex and can't afford the court battle and/or think they'd have no chance.

@Busdriver81 See my previous post re 50/50. Not similar anything!

I did 50/50. My ex wanted it so he could get out of paying maintence. And he was self employed with a good accountant.

My kids didn’t like it as they got older.

He kept the family home and left me penniless.

But I have my independence and a good job now.

But it’s a fallacy to say 50/50 makes it even. It doesn’t.

If OP thinks his ex has it cushy he can always go for 50:50

And if he did no doubt posters would say it was only to get out of paying maintenance, not good for the children because they need a base and so on... Seriously I think a lot of posters don't know what it is they want.

I imagine a lot of mum's don't want to a lot of time to the NRP. It's all very well saying 'go for 50:50, she does the bulk' etc etc... How many mother's would honestly want their ex to have 50:50 or more?

If me and DH split I'd want to be the RP no matter how much extra work it were. I'd be gutted if he tried to fight me for that.

I guess I just have a different experience of this as my Dad was the RP and was a hell of a lot better than my mum growing up. My mum was the EOW parent who didn't pay any maintenance. Not common I know.

If me and DH split I'd want to be the RP no matter how much extra work it were. I'd be gutted if he tried to fight me for that.

Agreed. I did fight, in fact. Also 50:50 care isn't possible when you are living 130 miles apart from the NRP - they can only go to one school! My ex tried to take my daughter full time and I fought it, and now my daughter is a teenager she prefers more time with me anyway and often chooses not to go to her dads. So it really isn't always as straightforward as "bet dad wouldn't want 50:50" or wants to do "the bare minimum". Some dads want more but are overruled by mums / children's preferences.

Hang on though, if the OP has paid less this year because his income has decreased, that’ll be taken into account next year when CMS make the calculations, so effectively the money his DD’s mother gets for CM will take a double hit.

In actual fact, if things return to something approaching normal next tax year the OP will be up, because he’ll be back to doing overtime while the amount calculated by CMS will have decreased because of the reduced total from the previous tax year.

OP you should be paying CM at the rate recommended by CMS, in fact, as PPs have said, that’s a minimum. You don’t get to decide to pay less even if your income does go down because that will be taken into account next year. You can look forward to a lower CMS payment next year I’m sure where as your ex can look forward to having to find more money in order to raise your child.

@Bluemooninmyeyes1. feminist ramblings . Why is it controversial to point out that women (including the OP's ex) are economically disadvantages by bearing the bulk of caring responsibilities?

Actually yes:

• Pay a consistent amount of maintenance that ensures his DD enjoys a good standard of living in both homes.
• Offer what practical help he reasonably can with his DD to enable his ex to get a job. Yes, her working is her problem, but it will hugely benefit his DD if her mum is able to become more financially independent. So, indirectly, it's his problem as well.
• Seriously consider asking for 50/50 care if he thinks that would be in his DD's interests. Then he could be an equally involved parent.

£500 is relative to Orinoco82's income. I would say that there's limited gain from going to the cms at this point. But I would be checking that the amounts were accurate.
I agree that £500 for one child isn't a pittance. And though the ex's financial situation is her business, she is receiving "financing" from at least 3 men, plus any means tested benefits and the child benefits. So, yes it's understandable that the op is irked as yes if so financially stretched the ex "could" also work. (let's be fair, in isolation it does sound as though the ex financially speaking has found her cash cows).
Likewise, along with thousands of households, many have had reduced income. This obviously should filter down to the op's ex. Its unfortunate, but noone receiving maintenance should ever be reliant on that for basics as maintenance is always subject to changes at short notice in the event of job loss, sickness and now pandemics!
As much notice as possible is the best way forward, but equally this is not always possible.

I have to say that I think that the Disney father jibes are unfair.

We have no idea which parent relocated.
We have no idea whether the father would have liked greater contact but this has been blocked.
We only know that this is a parent who is contributing. Yes, had he remained with the mother, the child would have benefitted from a greater percentage of his income and the associated lifestyle. However, we don't know that the child isn't living within a household with a far higher income than the op has earning potential. And let's be fair she certainly has access to more financing than many.

I believe I'm right in saying that cms will only change the amount payable mid year if the salary falls more than 25%. Any less than this and the nrp is expected to take the hit and tighten their belt, not pass that on the RP and child. At annual review time, a drop would be accounted for. I think there are extremes of both types on here. OP does more than some nrps but the ex is not 'lucky' that he does. The biggest thing, as others have said is that the op sees his kid AROUND his work. Rps don't get to do it that way and it makes a huge huge difference. I work full time and Ave a constant game of 3d chess to get me and my two kids where we need to be. My ex gets to his job, entirely unencumbered by any of it and that counts for a fuck of a lot in my book.

@Whatisthisfuckery

Hang on though, if the OP has paid less this year because his income has decreased, that’ll be taken into account next year when CMS make the calculations, so effectively the money his DD’s mother gets for CM will take a double hit.

In actual fact, if things return to something approaching normal next tax year the OP will be up, because he’ll be back to doing overtime while the amount calculated by CMS will have decreased because of the reduced total from the previous tax year.

OP you should be paying CM at the rate recommended by CMS, in fact, as PPs have said, that’s a minimum. You don’t get to decide to pay less even if your income does go down because that will be taken into account next year. You can look forward to a lower CMS payment next year I’m sure where as your ex can look forward to having to find more money in order to raise your child.

Wrong about double hits. His income is only taking into consideration from the time of application. So last week he could have been a millionaire and that's irrelevant. His income from today until next year is taking into account. So actually yes if the wage increased in March he'd be paying less than he would have been when it was an informal agreement. And the amount wouldn't change until the annual assessment. Personally, I don't see how this benefits either party going via cms. In fact it actually means the op will be impacted more if he goes via cms as if his income drops by upto 19% he'd still be expected to pay the same amount until the review.

@HugeAckmansWife

I believe I'm right in saying that cms will only change the amount payable mid year if the salary falls more than 25%. Any less than this and the nrp is expected to take the hit and tighten their belt, not pass that on the RP and child. At annual review time, a drop would be accounted for. I think there are extremes of both types on here. OP does more than some nrps but the ex is not 'lucky' that he does. The biggest thing, as others have said is that the op sees his kid AROUND his work. Rps don't get to do it that way and it makes a huge huge difference. I work full time and Ave a constant game of 3d chess to get me and my two kids where we need to be. My ex gets to his job, entirely unencumbered by any of it and that counts for a fuck of a lot in my book.

But you choosing to not work in school hours etc is not the nrp's fault. I'm a lone parent and work from home in school hours. My choice. Same as you choose not to. Don't try to state that because he's working around his contact time that he's impacting on the ex who sounds quite happy sat on backside not working with her two exes and current bf financing her lifestyle.

There's an endless supply of well- paying jobs which are school hours only, of course .

@dontdisturbmenow

If OP thinks his ex has it cushy he can always go for 50:50 Funny how it is always assumed that the father never wants this. Yet we have a,poster just page ago who took her to court, got 50/50 and seems to be managing very well, still able to work in his high income job.

I think some fathers are indeed happy with eow at most, but many fathers would be very happy with 50/50 but are not given the chance by their ex and can't afford the court battle and/or think they'd have no chance.

I'm not a mind reader, we don't know if it's what he wants/has tried to get it but he doesn't appreciate that by not having 50:50 it means he's free to work as much overtime as is available because he has no childcare responsibilities to consider because his ex does the majority of it. Random days here and there isn't something the resident parent can reliably work an average 9-5 job around.

The mother sounds like a pain.

Don't lend her more money. Accept you won't get what you've already lent her back.
If you truly cannot afford to keep up the usual payments, don't get into debt over it. If you can, keep them up. As long as she is not refusing contact (although suspect this might be pulled soon) just stick to your argument.
CMS - yes they will calculate and you have that protection. But they only adjust the figure if your gross salary increases or falls by more than 20%. If your overtime is less than 20% of your gross salary therefore, in these lockdowns they would not have changed the amount you are due to pay because of the company's decision not to pay overtime.

50-50 suggestions sound unreasonable because of the distance and your child going to school.

She has a working partner and another child she received maintenance for, plus potentially some benefits on top (dependent on partners income) - I think you are fair in suggesting she could work part time, dependent on the children's ages.

Regardless of what posters say on here £500 on top of partners income/other maintenance/any benefits is a lot and I'm sure its probably paying for a number of luxuries in their lives. Many mothers live off benefits only and, in my experience from people I know, do not have financial issues and live relatively comfortably - especially if in council/HA housing where the rent is covered in full.