Child maintenance

[Orinoco82]

Hi all, this is my first post on here, feels a bit strange as I’m a bloke posting on Mumsnet but there we are!

I’m basically just after some advice and other folks opinion on an issue I’m having with my daughters mum regarding the maintenance that I pay to her monthly.

I’ll try not to go on too much so here goes.

I have a daughter who is 5 years old and lives with her mum. Her mum and I separated before she was born but I have been there since day one and have always paid maintenance on time and every time without fail and I have even given extra money and lent money (which I never got back) on occasion.

I normally pay just under £500 per month maintenance to my ex but when this Coronavirus crap first hit earlier this year and the country went into the first lock down, the company I work for basically cancelled all overtime and call out which would have a substantial impact on my earnings (approx down £1200-1500 per month). As soon as I found out my earnings were going to cut, I thought it only fair that I tell my ex that her maintenance will be reducing which, although not what she wanted, she didn’t give me too hard a hard time over. I normally do a lot of overtime as I have debts that I’m trying desperately to clear and I want to provide for my daughter at the same time. I said I will give what I can and hopefully the overtime will come back and I can start giving the normal amount again. I managed to give £300 as that was all I could manage that month.

After a month or so, some overtime returned and I was able to give a little more so I raised it to £400 per month. I have also bought my daughter clothes, shoes and other bits and bobs as any parent would do.

My company has now again removed all the overtime due to this second lockdown so I thought it right that I should tell my ex straight away that again, my earnings will be going down. This time she absolutely lost the plot and went nuts at me down the phone saying that I don’t provide for my child, make no time for my child, I’m a hopeless father etc.......... none of which is true.

I love my daughter dearly, she is all I have in the world. She lives over an hours drive away from where I live and I always collect her and drop her home and I’m more than happy to do this, my ex has dropped her to me 3 times in 5 years and every time asked me for £50 fuel for doing so (which I refused). I make sure that I have at least 2 weekends off per month so I can have her and spend time with her. If I finish work on a Friday at a reasonable time, I’ll go and pick her up for the weekend. If I’m off during the week, I’ll drive all the way down to where she is to pick her up from school and take her to the park and out for some dinner then get her back home and drive home again. If she has a school play or sports day or whatever, I’ll go there, watch her and then go to work. I honestly do the best I can so I find it very hurtful when I get told that I’m a hopeless father and I don’t provide. I don’t think that’s the case at all. I may be wrong, who knows.

The other thing that has annoyed me hugely is that she borrowed a hefty (to me at least) amount of money from me and when I mentioned this to her the other day (she’s owed to me for over 2 years), she says that because I have been giving less maintenance, then I can basically go and whistle for my money which I think is wrong.

The maintenance that I give her was worked out using the CMS calculator but we haven’t involved the CMS but I have told her that I now want to go down this route as I am sick of being told I’m not giving enough so at least this way, there can be no dispute. She has told me that she doesn’t want me to do this though. Don’t know why as surely it won’t affect her.

She is always telling me how she has no money yet she refuses to look for work, has a partner that works, has another child (who she gets maintenance for also). Surely if you’re that hard up for money, you’d do everything you could to find a part time job?Maybe that’s just me?!

I could understand her being angry with me if I was giving her a pittance and driving around in a lovely car, living in a big house and wearing fancy clothes etc........ but I have none of that. Yes I’m really into my cars but I haven’t had anything nice for quite some time but that is literally my only vice. My current car is worth about £1500 tops.

I’m very sorry, I’ve been rambling (more getting things off my chest I guess). I guess the question I’m asking is, am I really in the wrong to adjust the amount of maintenance I give considering I’m now earning considerably less money? I fully intend to pay the normal amount once my earnings go back up so I’m not looking to get away with not paying it, I’m not that kind of person.

Thanks very much for taking the time to read.

@Ideasplease322

You're right he's far less hands on than he would like to be. The point being he wants to do more. But when my daughter was younger I wasn't prepared to give up residency so he could take her, and now she's older my daughter herself chooses to go there less. So in defence of my original point, that not all nrp fathers are total shitheads - he's a good example.

@WithoutATtrace

You sprout the same crap as every bloke over having to pay maintenance, it's so predictable. If she gets a job, you will then also have to pay for 50% of the Childcare, or look after your DD on top.

Your debts are your own and nothing to do with your ex.

Go through the CSA, but do not come on here being a Disney Dad because that's exactly what you are.

You sound like a delight.

@Ideasplease322

Just to add, she chooses to go there less not because she doesn't love her dad, but because her life has been in a separate county for the past decade and all of her school friends are here. She wants to be seeing them at weekends (pre Covid obviously!!), like a normal teenager does. So she picks and chooses her own weekends now and agrees them with Dad, then one of them tells me what the plan is. That's how it's worked for a while. I know deep down he wants to see her more though and is often hurt when she wants to stay here and see friends. But sadly that's growing up for you.

question about whether an eow mother can be a "good mother". I don't see it like that at all - there are so many shades of grey and it takes different facets to be a good enough parent.

I agree that the question is perhaps a simplistic one. But the answer must be yes, unless we're prepared to come out and admit we have totally different standards for mothers than fathers. If an EOW father can be a "good father", then it surely must be possible for an EOW mother to be a "good mother".

But what do you do if, actually, both parents would prefer to be an EOW parent? On this logic, neither is a bad parent but, between them, they're not going to meet their children's needs.

There are massive barriers for people to overcome - all individual and all need understanding in context. It is not as easy as suggesting you should just try a bit harder
But it sounds like you did overcome them. You retrained and made it work. It does take sometimes a bit longer but you clearly didn't just rely on your ex to support you with a high maintenance for however long.

generally children are not the best judge of how well they've been parented until they grow up (and sometimes not even then)
Nor are mother's with an ax to grind and bitterness that her ex is in a better financial.sirustion than she is.

@MessAllOver

question about whether an eow mother can be a "good mother". I don't see it like that at all - there are so many shades of grey and it takes different facets to be a good enough parent.

I agree that the question is perhaps a simplistic one. But the answer must be yes, unless we're prepared to come out and admit we have totally different standards for mothers than fathers. If an EOW father can be a "good father", then it surely must be possible for an EOW mother to be a "good mother".

But what do you do if, actually, both parents would prefer to be an EOW parent? On this logic, neither is a bad parent but, between them, they're not going to meet their children's needs.

In this extreme example I'd say the hypothetical child would likely end up in the care of family or social services.

I agree that the question is perhaps a simplistic one. But the answer must be yes, unless we're prepared to come out and admit we have totally different standards for mothers than fathers. If an EOW father can be a "good father", then it surely must be possible for an EOW mother to be a "good mother".

Of course it's possible. Unconventional according to how society usually operates, perhaps. But entirely possible.

It does take sometimes a bit longer but you clearly didn't just rely on your ex to support you with a high maintenance for however long.

But that time when she was struggling to get there represents her children's childhood. It's not just the mother struggling through it alone, the children are growing up in difficult financial circumstances. An impoverished childhood has long-lasting effects - they can't get that time back.

In this extreme example I'd say the hypothetical child would likely end up in the care of family or social services.

But would you still say, in a situation where both parents want EOW and the child goes into care/is cared for by relatives, that both parents are good parents?

Also, as a loving parent who has done nothing wrong, the last thing I want to be is an EOW mum. But the sad reality is that this may be forced upon me by the Courts. It's the price of leaving a narcissistic and abusive ex sometimes.

@MessAllOver

In this extreme example I'd say the hypothetical child would likely end up in the care of family or social services.

But would you still say, in a situation where both parents want EOW and the child goes into care/is cared for by relatives, that both parents are good parents?

I'd be of the opinion that both parents have quite significant limitations as parents if they are prepared to allow their child to go into the care system rather than one of them take responsibility. I wouldn't judge "good" or "bad" - I'd see them as clearly struggling. But I guarantee the outcome wouldn't be good for the child, sadly.

the children are growing up in difficult financial circumstances
It depends what we mean by difficult financial circumstances. UC is based on the basis that maintenance isn't paid so no child should go drastically without even if maintenance is low.

They will always be some barriers higher for some to, but in a very large case, the main barrier is the rp unwillingness to work more than 16h.

I'd be of the opinion that both parents have quite significant limitations as parents if they are prepared to allow their child to go into the care system rather than one of them take responsibility. I wouldn't judge "good" or "bad" - I'd see them as clearly struggling.

Maybe they're not struggling. Maybe one parent (the main carer) realises that they're about to get screwed financially and decides they're just not going to stand for it and it will be easier to retrain and earn a good living in the long-run if they don't have to juggle that with caring responsibilities. The other parent hasn't spent much time caring for the children up to that point and doesn't view them as being their responsibility (as opposed to the Big Important Job). Which parent should take responsibility and take the children?

Maybe they're not struggling. Maybe one parent (the main carer) realises that they're about to get screwed financially and decides they're just not going to stand for it and it will be easier to retrain and earn a good living in the long-run if they don't have to juggle that with caring responsibilities. The other parent hasn't spent much time caring for the children up to that point and doesn't view them as being their responsibility (as opposed to the Big Important Job). Which parent should take responsibility and take the children?

I'm not sure what you mean by "get screwed financially". But if you're honestly presenting the scenario of neither parent being willing to take on the role of resident parent, what option is there left other than local authority care? It's effectively a situation (which I hope for the sake of children is rare!) where both parents are saying "nope not my responsibility thanks". How sad for the children! In that case I'd be questioning why the hell they had kids in the first place! 🤷‍♀️

I also believe RP should not move away from NRP - how is that in the best interest of the child?

If that was aimed at me (I think it was), can you tell me how it is in a child's best interests to remain within a few miles of their NRP in a part of the country where an ex council house with less bedrooms than people would have cost me more monthly than my salary, a non-financially contributing NRP and a PWC who is unable to make ends meet? What kind of childhood would that have been? At least by moving, I was able to be mortgage free and work full time with family support. It also removed the children from their NRP's constant conflict and anger displayed at every hand over. Even now, some 12 years later, he is unable to refer to me as anything other than 'your fucking mother' and he's the one who left me!

My eldest child has passed all his GCSEs and is now at 6th form on track for university, and works all weekend. all three children enjoy a positive relationship with their father and see him very regularly, talk all the time on Skype etc. and text each other constantly. They have been well brought up, free of conflict and with advantages that a full time working parent can bring - activities, outings, holidays etc

They will always be some barriers higher for some to, but in a very large case, the main barrier is the rp unwillingness to work more than 16h

what is the point in working 16 hours if it will cost you more than you earn in childcare. That's without paying rent/mortgage, bills, food, transport etc You seem utterly unable to grasp that just because you made it work, it isn't always possible for some.

@Isthatitnow - It wasn't aimed at you.

However no parent should move their child away from the NRP. How does a child form a relationship with the NRP?

It just annoys me that all we see is 50/50 is not best for the child. How do you know that? Mothers intuition or is it case of dollars? I reckon if the mother wasnt to receive child maintenance until access had been sorted there would be alot less conflict

@Busdriver81
Have you ever read one of the thread about parents who move in and out of the family home on a 50/50 basis while the children stay out?
Apparently most adult would feel unsettled and never quite at home and why should they have to do that anyway. And yet people think it’s automatically the best thing for children when page one of “how to parent” is that children thrive on consistency, stability and routine.

It just annoys me that all we see is 50/50 is not best for the child. How do you know that?

In my case it was dictated by geographical circumstances (dad lives 130 miles away and my daughter goes to school where I live so there was no way he could do the midweek overnights and get her to school on time and then be at work on time), and later on it was based on my daughter's preferences, i.e. she expressed that she would like to spend more time with me as she didn't like the constant back and forth every other weekend. She maintained phone contact with her dad at the times she chose to stay with me. Their relationship now is just fine.

I think 50/50 works OK if both parents are capable of working together in the best interests of the children. Co-parenting 50/50 doesn't work with a narcissist exacting revenge on an ex.

I reckon if the mother wasnt to receive child maintenance until access had been sorted there would be alot less conflict

I couldn't care less about maintenance. I don't want or need his money. It has absolutely no bearing at all on the level of contact my daughter has with her dad, and it never has. Don't tar us all with the same brush.

@LouJ85 That's good for you. But what about separated families in which there is a disparity in earning potential, for whatever reason(s)?

[quote Nicknamegoeshere]@LouJ85 That's good for you. But what about separated families in which there is a disparity in earning potential, for whatever reason(s)?[/quote]
What's good for me? I'm not sure which one of my comments you are referring to.

[quote Busdriver81]@Isthatitnow - It wasn't aimed at you.

However no parent should move their child away from the NRP. How does a child form a relationship with the NRP?

It just annoys me that all we see is 50/50 is not best for the child. How do you know that? Mothers intuition or is it case of dollars? I reckon if the mother wasnt to receive child maintenance until access had been sorted there would be alot less conflict[/quote]
Surely some NRPs would refuse to 'sort' access so they didn't have to pay CMS. Who would decide it was sorted?

And access and maintenance should never be linked. I've never stopped my ex seeing the dc (not that I need to, he only sees them when it's convenient) despite him not paying anything for about 6 years now.

You said you "didn't want or need his money" (for the kids, I'm assuming?)

A lot of the reason ex "wanted" 50/50 was so that he could continue with the financial control / abuse he started when we were married.