Child maintenance

[Orinoco82]

Hi all, this is my first post on here, feels a bit strange as I’m a bloke posting on Mumsnet but there we are!

I’m basically just after some advice and other folks opinion on an issue I’m having with my daughters mum regarding the maintenance that I pay to her monthly.

I’ll try not to go on too much so here goes.

I have a daughter who is 5 years old and lives with her mum. Her mum and I separated before she was born but I have been there since day one and have always paid maintenance on time and every time without fail and I have even given extra money and lent money (which I never got back) on occasion.

I normally pay just under £500 per month maintenance to my ex but when this Coronavirus crap first hit earlier this year and the country went into the first lock down, the company I work for basically cancelled all overtime and call out which would have a substantial impact on my earnings (approx down £1200-1500 per month). As soon as I found out my earnings were going to cut, I thought it only fair that I tell my ex that her maintenance will be reducing which, although not what she wanted, she didn’t give me too hard a hard time over. I normally do a lot of overtime as I have debts that I’m trying desperately to clear and I want to provide for my daughter at the same time. I said I will give what I can and hopefully the overtime will come back and I can start giving the normal amount again. I managed to give £300 as that was all I could manage that month.

After a month or so, some overtime returned and I was able to give a little more so I raised it to £400 per month. I have also bought my daughter clothes, shoes and other bits and bobs as any parent would do.

My company has now again removed all the overtime due to this second lockdown so I thought it right that I should tell my ex straight away that again, my earnings will be going down. This time she absolutely lost the plot and went nuts at me down the phone saying that I don’t provide for my child, make no time for my child, I’m a hopeless father etc.......... none of which is true.

I love my daughter dearly, she is all I have in the world. She lives over an hours drive away from where I live and I always collect her and drop her home and I’m more than happy to do this, my ex has dropped her to me 3 times in 5 years and every time asked me for £50 fuel for doing so (which I refused). I make sure that I have at least 2 weekends off per month so I can have her and spend time with her. If I finish work on a Friday at a reasonable time, I’ll go and pick her up for the weekend. If I’m off during the week, I’ll drive all the way down to where she is to pick her up from school and take her to the park and out for some dinner then get her back home and drive home again. If she has a school play or sports day or whatever, I’ll go there, watch her and then go to work. I honestly do the best I can so I find it very hurtful when I get told that I’m a hopeless father and I don’t provide. I don’t think that’s the case at all. I may be wrong, who knows.

The other thing that has annoyed me hugely is that she borrowed a hefty (to me at least) amount of money from me and when I mentioned this to her the other day (she’s owed to me for over 2 years), she says that because I have been giving less maintenance, then I can basically go and whistle for my money which I think is wrong.

The maintenance that I give her was worked out using the CMS calculator but we haven’t involved the CMS but I have told her that I now want to go down this route as I am sick of being told I’m not giving enough so at least this way, there can be no dispute. She has told me that she doesn’t want me to do this though. Don’t know why as surely it won’t affect her.

She is always telling me how she has no money yet she refuses to look for work, has a partner that works, has another child (who she gets maintenance for also). Surely if you’re that hard up for money, you’d do everything you could to find a part time job?Maybe that’s just me?!

I could understand her being angry with me if I was giving her a pittance and driving around in a lovely car, living in a big house and wearing fancy clothes etc........ but I have none of that. Yes I’m really into my cars but I haven’t had anything nice for quite some time but that is literally my only vice. My current car is worth about £1500 tops.

I’m very sorry, I’ve been rambling (more getting things off my chest I guess). I guess the question I’m asking is, am I really in the wrong to adjust the amount of maintenance I give considering I’m now earning considerably less money? I fully intend to pay the normal amount once my earnings go back up so I’m not looking to get away with not paying it, I’m not that kind of person.

Thanks very much for taking the time to read.

@MessAllOver incorrect. Mothers see fathers as having equal financial responsibility but none of the rights.

@Busdriver81. What rights? Parents have no rights in relation to children, only responsibilities to act in their best interests?

@dontdisturbmenow

YY I suspect so many who say this are not in fact single mothers with amazing well paid careers. Because if they were they would be so aware of the barriers Barriers do get climbed over. So sad that some seemed to have convinced themselves they can't work ft in a relatively well paid job whilst being a good parent. Of course it is tough but I opted for a tough life for 10 years or so for many more years of financial comfort and independence so that my life now is much less tough than for many single parent.

I think we are basically the same person 😂

There many of us Lou but only a few come here because most don't have the time to do so!

@dontdisturbmenow

There many of us Lou but only a few come here because most don't have the time to do so!

👍🏻😂😂 I'm glad you joined the party. I was starting to think I was losing the plot!

[quote Busdriver81]@MessAllOver incorrect. Mothers see fathers as having equal financial responsibility but none of the rights.[/quote]
If I'm right here I think you are referring to rights in the sense of access / decision making? I know many mums who expect regular maintenance payments then withhold contact and/or deny the father the right to be involved in important decisions for the children when things don't quite go their way. As just one example, I live with a man who experiences this sort of treatment regularly from his exW.

@Orinoco82 the best thing is to make things very black and white. Go the legal route and then there is no argument.
My friend gets £180 per month from her ex for their only child.
If your maintenance is reduced you can always buy extras for your little girl.
The problem is that you want to ensure she gets fed and treated properly.
If you were my son I'll say carry on doing your best and make legal arrangements.
If you want to give extra that would be up to you.

[quote Busdriver81]@MessAllOver incorrect. Mothers see fathers as having equal financial responsibility but none of the rights.[/quote]
Do stop fucking generalising I could come on here and say all men pay less than 7 per week and don't see there kids by there own choice because that's what my ex does I dont because not all men are twats

If I'm right here I think you are referring to rights in the sense of access / decision making? I know many mums who expect regular maintenance payments then withhold contact and/or deny the father the right to be involved in important decisions for the children when things don't quite go their way. As just one example, I live with a man who experiences this sort of treatment regularly from his exW.

The questions of 1) financial maintenance and 2) access/decision-making powers in relation to the children are entirely separate (and are treated as so by the courts).

1. All children have the right to be supported financially by both their parents. Financial support is ALWAYS in the best interests of the children and is not dependent on or linked to access etc.

2. It is USUALLY in the best interests of the children for both parents to be involved in their lives (and to have joint parental responsibility and decision-making powers). This relies on both parents acting responsibly. Obviously, the parent with day-to-day care will by necessity make most of the practical decisions in the children's lives. However, sometimes parents will have different ideas about what is in the children's best interests (and it may be necessary for a court to decide). In cases of abuse or neglect, access for one parent may not be in the children's best interests.

It is not a straightforward "money for access" trade.

Some parents (mums and dads) fail to put their children's interests first. For example, by:

• Not providing financial support.
• Not allowing the other parent to play an active role in the children's lives where this would be beneficial for the children
• Frequently failing to turn up for or cancelling visits and letting the children down.

Two wrongs don't make a right. "Well she doesn't let me see the kids enough so I won't pay her any money for them" is a shitty response.

@MessAllOver

I never said it was a case of trading money for access?! I was clarifying my understanding of what that pp seemed to mean with their comment. And it does happen - bitter mothers denying access on contact weekend all because they aren't in their view being given enough money, or dad won't jump and dance to their tune when they click their fingers - trust me, I've lived it alongside my partner for the past 5 years. You seem to have a very idealistic view of the poor mother left holding the children. Some are VERY manipulative and do and say things that are very much not in the child's best interests!

Two wrongs don't make a right. "Well she doesn't let me see the kids enough so I won't pay her any money for them" is a shitty response.

I agree with you that this is shitty and I don't think I have said anything that would condone this? But you can't honestly believe that the opposite equally as shitty situation doesn't also happen? That is, mum going "right if he refuses to pay me more money than I'm demanding, or if he refuses to have the kids on that particular weekend because he says he's working, then I I'll tell him he's not seeing the kids ever again ".

This is what I've lived through , like I say. There are two sides.

No one has answered this question yet:

Is it possible to be a good mother if you pay the correct amount of child maintenance and see your children EOW?

@MessAllOver

No one has answered this question yet:

Is it possible to be a good mother if you pay the correct amount of child maintenance and see your children EOW?

Personally I don’t think it’s possible to be a good parent if you only see a child every other weekend. It’s not enough time to parent.

@Nicknamegoeshere

I think the 50/50 = no payment due on either side needs reviewing somehow. Not sure how to make it fairer, I don't have all of the answers, but here's my situation... Left an abusive ex-husband. He'd changed the locks to the large marital home within hours of me leaving. He'd taken my cards out of my purse. Frozen joint accounts. I had a total of 89p to my name. Two kids who were 3 and 6. We stayed with my parents for six weeks. I managed to increase my working hours so I could just about afford to privately rent. Damp and mouldy two-bed, but at least it was a roof. A church charity donated us clothes, furniture and toys for the children. I couldn't afford to buy a bunk bed for the kids at first and their room was too small for two singles so we all slept together in the same bed. No money for a washing machine so my mum helped to get our clothes clean. In the weeks I didn't have the kids I turned down the heating and barely ate. Got loads of comments on my weight loss lol! Throughout all of this hardship my ex was / is continuing to earn in excess of £100k pa. I'm just about - by the skin of my teeth - getting by when I receive a letter from the CB people. Ex is taking CB off me for one child (even though he'll have to pay it back as he earns way over the threshold). Seven years on we are still in privately rented. If we need a wee at the same time we have to hold it in as only one loo! He remains in the former marital home with four bathrooms, a hot tub and four sports cars on the drive. Before you ask, yes I got a settlement upon divorce. But he is self-employed and hid assets and temporarily gave his shares to family members so that it was not enough for me to buy a suitable property. He is now applying for futher custody so I would have the kids just EOW. Using his wealth and comfortable standard of living as an argument as to why he is better placed to have the childen the majority of the time. I pay far more out for the kids than he does. He has me over a barrel really because if I say no it's the kids that lose out. Say if they want to go a school residential then it's me thst has to pay. I pay for any extra-curricular activities too; the list goes on. I work ft and my income is around £13-£14k pa. Who does that sound fair to?!

This is really shocking of your ex! If he wants to play like that you should offer him to have the kids full time! And you can have the kids a couple of nights a week and see what he says. So he doesn’t pay CMS? Absolutely disgusting I feel for you.

@MessAllOver

No one has answered this question yet:

Is it possible to be a good mother if you pay the correct amount of child maintenance and see your children EOW?

But that's the nature of separation! Unless 2 deeply unhappy parents make a (in my view unhealthy) decision to stay together under the same roof just for the kids' sake, the nature of separation means one parent will always be the non resident! As I and others have said repeatedly, an exact 50:50 split is not always tenable nor is it always necessarily what's best for the child. Children need a permanent stable sense of home - my daughter hated the to-ing and fro-big up and down the motorway as she got older, and voiced her preference to go to dad's less. So one parent will usually inevitably be in an EOW situation. Mid weeks aren't always feasible if the child goes to school in a different part of the country to the NRP, for example (as in our case). It's sometimes just a practical reality of separation - there's no need to berate the NRP for it. Someone has to be that person. In my case, as I've said, her dad wanted to be that person - I said no way as a mummy to a little girl there was no way I would want my baby away from that much. But that wasn't dad's choice necessarily! He wanted to take her off me - I contested. You are coming at this from such a black and white angle and the reality is that there are many shades of grey. And I firmly believe you can be a 'good enough' parent no matter what your situation if you provide love, warmth, stability, finances, and discipline. Frequency of contact and bank balance alone due not equal the sum of a good enough parent - that's far too simplistic.

I'll also add this -
If you ask my 14 year old daughter about her dad she'd tell you he's the best thing since sliced bread, she adores him. He's been an EOW dad (sometimes less frequently than this) for many years due to the practical and geographic reality of our situation. Financially, as I've said previously on here, she gets the majority of what she needs from me with a £112 a month contribution from her dad. Again - practical reality - I earn a lot more than her dad therefore logic dictates she gets more from me.

Is he a good parent? According to my daughter he absolutely is. Isn't she the best person to judge? He clearly adores her and provides her with what she needs in a dad, emotionally. She wouldn't have that view of him otherwise.

So yes , in answer to your question... you can be a good parent and see your child EOW while contributing less financially than the resident parent.

Barriers do get climbed over. So sad that some seemed to have convinced themselves they can't work ft in a relatively well paid job whilst being a good parent

When my ex walked out, I had a baby in arms, a pre schooler and a child in reception. All with different start and finish times, all in different directions as the crow flies from our front door. Trying to navigate that with fixed start and finish times at work (job wasn't flexible at all) was impossible. Even more so without a car. Also, to prevent me doing the logical thing and moving to be near family, ex got a prohibitive steps order out on me so I was unable to change nursery/preschool/school if that would have made it easier. And as he was self employed, I never got a penny out of him (nor to this day, 12 years later). So the £800 a month for the baby alone for me to work full time wasn't even nearly covered by tax credits, particularly when my salary at the time was around £1.5k and my mortgage was £1.2k a month (and something again, my ex refused to work with me on to shift to interest only which would have dropped the cost considerably). None of it added up - either financially or in practical terms.

Fortunately for me, I am educated and had a ton of work experience and was able to retrain to make it work. But I also had to pay £15k in legal fees to be able to move so I could support my children (because lord knows their father hasn't). There are massive barriers for people to overcome - all individual and all need understanding in context. It is not as easy as suggesting you should just try a bit harder.

And to address the part about mothers being the NRP and still being a good parent. Why not? Everyone's circumstances are different and if a child having residency with dad while seeing mum eow works for that particular family, why would it automatically make her a "bad" parent? No less than it makes fathers automatically bad parents just because they aren't the resident parent?

I also believe RP should not move away from NRP - how is that in the best interest of the child?

@Isthatitnow

I get that. I do. I've had to overcome monumental barriers to be where I am, I've had to sacrifice a hell of a lot and work my arse off while struggling with a number of personal, family and health issues. My ex didn't "walk out", I ended it with him because I was unhappy, and the roots of my career prospects were already established before we split as I always knew what I wanted to achieve with my life way before I had a child. But just because my barriers didn't involve a messy separation and an ex walking out on me, doesn't mean I didn't face significant ones. Just of a different type. It hasn't been a walk in the park at all, not even close. But then again, nothing worth having in life is a walk in the park in my view. Including raising children!

@LouJ85 I'm not suggesting that your daughters father isn't a good dad but generally children are not the best judge of how well they've been parented until they grow up (and sometimes not even then)

[quote SugarbabyMilly]@LouJ85 I'm not suggesting that your daughters father isn't a good dad but generally children are not the best judge of how well they've been parented until they grow up (and sometimes not even then) [/quote]
True. But in this case, in my view he genuinely is a good dad and tries his best with the resources he has. Don't get me wrong, at times we've clashed big time!! But when I've been able to take a step back I can see he is trying his best. As am I, as a mother. Isn't that all we do as parents? The best we can with the resources (emotional, practical, and financial) that we have at any one time? I just think it's far too simplistic to say if you see your child eow and pay the legal minimum of child support to the other parent, then you can't possibly be a good parent. That's categorically not the case. Her dad pays me a set minimum amount each month but he pays for a lot of stuff extra to that when they spend time together, including giving money directly to her now she's old enough. My partner does the same with his teenage kids. So the amount that gets transferred to the resident parent based on a CMS calculation doesn't always tell the full story anyway!

Anyway ... that's my 2pence worth

LouJ85 It’s not a choice between good parent and bad parent, here are lots of degrees in between.

Your daughter dad doesn’t get to spend much time with her - maybe four days a month top? That must be really hard for both of them, but it does significantly reduce the amount of parts to g he can do.

He may well be great under the circumstances, and I am sure your daughter adores him, but he isn’t a hands on parent.

I also believe RP should not move away from NRP - how is that in the best interest of the child?

I would tend to agree with you that the RP and NRP should both try to ensure that parental relationships are maintained. However, I can think of two reasons why a move might be in the children's best interests.

1. Affordability - especially if NRP is providing very little maintenance, RP may have to move to a cheaper area to afford accommodation/a better lifestyle for the children. Housing in the south-east, for example, is prohibitively expensive for families. Of course, if the NRP is prepared to contribute more to the family's living costs, that might make a move less necessary. But if the alternative is homelessness or eviction, the RP may have no choice but to move.

• Family support - again, more of an issue where you have an NRP who isn't particularly involved or helpful. RP might need to move to be near friends and family who can provide practical and emotional support, for example, helping with school pick-ups so the RP can work. If the RP has an inflexible job, for example, they're going to need people they can call on to do emergency childcare.

@Ideasplease322

Yes. I'm in complete agreement that it's not a dichotomy between good and bad. Hence my post below where I pointed out that there are shades of grey, which was in response to @MessAllOver's question about whether an eow mother can be a "good mother". I don't see it like that at all - there are so many shades of grey and it takes different facets to be a good enough parent.