so we are now arresting people NOW Shocking

[Meadow1203]

I thought this was wind up but sadly it is true. A 73 year old retired nurse has been arrested and put in handcuffs because she took her own mother out of a care home. She has not had proper contact for 9 months and her poor 97 year old mum was ailing, she wanted to bring her home to care for her. Wow just wow how have we come to this.

I might not have had NVQs or CRB checks or training or any of the other things you listed, but that didn't seem to bother the Social Workers who were fully aware of our situation. I wonder why?

I have tried to quote your whole post but it doesn't seem to want to but in answer to this bit, the simple answer as far as I can see is money. It's a lot cheaper for the state if someone stays at home to be cared for by a family member, rather than in a home.
Money should never be a consideration when deciding what's the best avenue is for someone who needs care.
Some people are better being at home with family, they are happier and the person caring for them does so extremely well. But there's a lot that needs to be sacrificed in order to achieve that, and that's my point. Even the unmarried aunts were sacrificing to care for elderly relatives.
The fact that there are so many care homes and they're usually full says that people are unable to do the above, especially long term because of the impact on them. And because of that impact the person being cared for also suffers.
My comment was in response to someone saying that HCPs should put their money where their mouth is. I'm saying that those who thought this lady's actions were appropriate should also put their money where there mouth is and not use the facilities care homes offer but instead care for their loved ones at home with everything that entails.
I didn't mean to compare the two, I totally agree they are streets apart, I know how hard it is to do my job, without the familial emotional attachment and I can go home at the end of my shift.
I was responding to those who think it's easy, they don't realise how hard it will be on them, and their loved ones, and what caring for someone with dementia/comorbidities entails. But think it's ok to 'spring' someone from a care home, assaulting someone in the process, with no plans in place for anything.

You have quoted me in your post. I'm also the person who requested that the HCPs put their money where their mouth is.

If, a SW/ HCP has posted here, saying family members will not be able to cope looking after someone with dementia, because they are in their 70s or 80s themselves, then those posters need to stand by their own words.
Because there are thousands of people doing exactly that, with very little help from Social Services. If SS think these people are incapable then the dementia patients should be removed immediately, for their own safety. That's never going to happen.

If all those family carers refused, en masse, to provide any more care, then the system would collapse. SS know that.

Didn't she admit to not having planned it? In which case her home is highly unlikely to be 'safe' for her mum. Hospital bed, air mattress, bed lever, commode, chair raisers, suitable seating, perching stool, grab rails, ramps, stair rails, falls sensors, textured diet, appropriate mobility aid, pads, Inca sheets, Wendy lett, dressings, catheter bags..... the list goes on and on. The fact she was so impulsive, and aggressive, tells me all I need to know. I understand emotions are running high but equally we must ensure that any actions are taken in the residents best interests, if they are deemed not to have capacity. The resident should always be the centre of any care provided, not the family.

Hospital bed, air mattress, bed lever, commode, chair raisers, suitable seating, perching stool, grab rails, ramps, stair rails, falls sensors, textured diet, appropriate mobility aid, pads, Inca sheets, Wendy lett, dressings, catheter bags....

There are plenty of people with dementia living in their homes with none of those things.

@Hairyfairy01

Didn't she admit to not having planned it? In which case her home is highly unlikely to be 'safe' for her mum. Hospital bed, air mattress, bed lever, commode, chair raisers, suitable seating, perching stool, grab rails, ramps, stair rails, falls sensors, textured diet, appropriate mobility aid, pads, Inca sheets, Wendy lett, dressings, catheter bags..... the list goes on and on. The fact she was so impulsive, and aggressive, tells me all I need to know. I understand emotions are running high but equally we must ensure that any actions are taken in the residents best interests, if they are deemed not to have capacity. The resident should always be the centre of any care provided, not the family.

We were given one thing on your list, incontinence pads.

One of the things I'm wondering is the mother self funding and has the cash assets dwindled and the next asset is the house which maybe needs to be sold. Also is the daughter an only child or are there other siblings who wish their mum to remain in the room as they feel as that's what is best.

I am in a FB group in relation to elderly parents and some of the stories people have shared regarding siblings who don't visit their parents but have plenty to say on what the person doing the caring should and shouldn't do. Some of the stories are horrendous.

@Meadow1203

If a care worker tried to stop me taking mu dad out of his home if I wanted to take him I would have shoved her too. The woman is retired nurse and can take care of her needs. Really please don not try and justify this

Then you'd be arrested and rightly so. You can't just kidnap people and that's what it would be.

@Graciebobcat

If the family don't have PoA for welfare they could apply for it legally through the courts if they want to dispute the care plan. I'd have a lot more respect for them if they did that rather than attempted to abduct a frail elderly relative

If you read the story they have tried a lot of avenues first for months to be able to see their mum/gran. And though she has dementia she can recognise family and is always overjoyed to see them. And she's 97. By the time you've gone through the courts she could have been dead months ago.

But they don't mention trying the obvious alternative to going to court, which is talking to Social Services.

It really doesn't take that long to get a Deputyship, assuming that everyone concerned is in agreement that the patient does not have capacity and that the daughter is the right person to make decisions for her. There is generally a presumption in favour of close relatives so unless there is good evidence showing the daughter is unsuitable it would more or less be nodded through.

Unfortunately, this little episode has probably just cast serious doubt on the suitability of the daughter to act as deputy.

Then you'd be arrested and rightly so. You can't just kidnap people and that's what it would be

It's mind boggling that trying to take an immediate family member into your home, when you can see they are declining and suffering because they have been unable to have a hug or proper bedside visit from their loved ones for nine months, can be considered kidnap. At what point do they become owned by the state? The state might tick all the boxes in "meeting their needs" (I hate that stupid expression) in keeping them alive and housed, but probably falls short in emotional and mental well-being.

@VinylDetective

Hospital bed, air mattress, bed lever, commode, chair raisers, suitable seating, perching stool, grab rails, ramps, stair rails, falls sensors, textured diet, appropriate mobility aid, pads, Inca sheets, Wendy lett, dressings, catheter bags....

There are plenty of people with dementia living in their homes with none of those things.

Yes of course there are, and there are plenty of people, especially in care homes, who need some or all of these things. Often this is one of the main reasons they are in care homes to begin with.

@Staffy1

Then you'd be arrested and rightly so. You can't just kidnap people and that's what it would be

It's mind boggling that trying to take an immediate family member into your home, when you can see they are declining and suffering because they have been unable to have a hug or proper bedside visit from their loved ones for nine months, can be considered kidnap. At what point do they become owned by the state? The state might tick all the boxes in "meeting their needs" (I hate that stupid expression) in keeping them alive and housed, but probably falls short in emotional and mental well-being.

It's a safeguarding issue! You can't just cart someone with dementia away from their familiar environment to who knows what!

All this daughter had to do was have a few conversations, understand what was needed of her, and do it.

But no, it's barge past a care worker and go to the papers

I don't know the story and don't want to add to the dozens of speculations on here but I do know from experience that once a DoLS has been served on someone then it would not be lawful to just remove that person from their setting. It would need to be agreed by a panel including their social worker, etc. It would not be in the resident's best interest to do otherwise. It's there to protect them. So if you tried to just 'bust them out' you'd be going entirely the wrong way about it. I don't know about this particular case, though, or whether as others have intimated there was any violence.

I work in a care home, and for anyone to try to remove a resident (who they've not seen for several months) is a cause for extreme concern. The resident may have medication requirements etc, not to mention the huge distress that a sudden upheaval would cause the lady. Covid has placed huge amounts of stress on everyone, but taking out frustrations on carers, who are usually only paid minimum wage, is completely unacceptable. There may be a variety of reasons why the lady was placed in a care home, some of which may well prevent her forcible removal. We only know what has been reported, but these cases typically have a lot more going on that we're privy to. Data protection forbids the home from commenting.

Is the care home meeting her needs if she is declining.

What possible reason would the carehome have to keep the mother in a place where because she can’t see her family she is so much worse off.

It might have been a spur of the moment thing if the family suddenly saw how badly she was suffering.

Fwiw Dp, one of the shielded people during last lockdown didnt go out for 4 months and it affected his MH so much that this time he isn’t going to take any notice of any shielding advice and carry on

He also hasn’t seen his dm (95 with dementia and in a care home a few hundred miles away) for 7 months.
I think it will come as a big shock when he does see her again.
He was planning on going up next week.

She's declining because she is 97 and has dementia.

Oliversmumsarmy Do you expect people to live forever?

PatriciaPerch How is it heartless? It’s true!

When l saw good old Lorraine bleating on about this on tv today, l knew there had to me more to it. Mumma might have special needs. Daughter might be a loon who will try and bump her off to get the last of her inheritance. You barely get any facts with these stories.

@Nicknacky

Oliversmumsarmy Do you expect people to live forever?

Presumably the care home should have magical powers to stop any age-related decline of near-centenarians.

Sounds like an entirely reasonable thing to expect.

I agree with this sad
but I will signpost you to the relevant department and may can assist you with your concerns

Thank you, but they are not my personal concerns even though I have strong views on it :)

PatriciaPerch Come on them, how is it heartless to point out that elderly people deteriorate and die?