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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Do you want another lockdown?

380 replies

RosieCrumpet · 30/10/2020 23:33

YABU - I want a lockdown just like before
YANBU - I don't want to lockdown.
Comment - Any variation on the above.
I'm genuinely curious to see where the majority lie on this - some people will be terrified of losing their jobs and homeschooling again whereas others would love a few more months of WFH or furloughing and extra family time.

OP posts:
SheepandCow · 31/10/2020 18:58

A rise in hospitalised 45-60 year olds.

Wouldn't class them as 'the elderly'.

That age group makes up a sizeable proportion of the workforce. Including teachers and other school staff and doctors, nurses, and other HCP.

Also many still have young children at that age.

They need to include the 45-50 year old age group in the flu jab programme.

AlaskaThunderfuckHiiiiiiiii · 31/10/2020 19:00

@SheepandCow and where all the extra flu vaccs coming from? There is already a shortage in some places?

Oliversmumsarmy · 31/10/2020 19:01

AlaskaThunderfuckHiiiiiiiii

I feel sorry for MIL.
She and the other residents of their care home have all had Covid (1 death).
She just wants to die and she isn’t alone. The loneliness and barren existence during the first lockdown was torture. She doesn’t see the point.

PhilCornwall1 · 31/10/2020 19:03

The one thing I'm taking away from this Press Conference and this is extremely important, no it's critical!!!

"Next Slide Please....."

Staffy1 · 31/10/2020 19:08

@CrotchBurn

Every person who wants a lockdown, no matter how faux resigned they sound usually has a secret selfish reason for wanting it
You could equally say every person who doesn't want a lockdown has a selfish reason as well. One is worried about rampaging covid and the effects on their health or life, the other about economic downturn and effects on their finances. A lot are worried about both. I wouldn't call any of them selfish, but som people can't seem to see beyond their own situations and view points...
RobinHobb · 31/10/2020 20:07

@peaceanddove

No, I don't. The government are getting it all wrong. It's pointless going for local or even regional lockdowns. We need to use risk to gauge lockdown.

The chances of anyone under 30 dying of Covid are vanishingly small, so they should be allowed to just get on with life, with virtually no restrictions, but obviously avoid close contact with anyone shielding, or over 70.

Those aged 30-60 should employ a few extra precautions, like wear masks etc, but essentially continue as normal, but again avoid those shielding or over 70.

Eventually herd immunity will be acquired.

gbdeclaration.org
peaceanddove · 31/10/2020 21:39

Thank you RobinHobb. Have signed x

Fizzydrinks123 · 31/10/2020 21:54

The NHS is overrun every winter with upturn in normal flu/viral illness/norovirus/heart attacks etc

Even if you are unable to grasp this fact, the PM said earlier : this isn't just about Covid - it is about the amount of staff to cope with the normal winter workload, some of whom may be ill/isolating, having family member ill themselves (picking up currently).

I'm in private healthcare and we are supporting the NHS currently and treating/operating NHS patients - the attempt is to keep the NHS running - it won't if the staff are ill (which is increasing again) and the numbers of Covid will go up/shutting down ability to run theatres.

The only way the economy can even slightly tick away at the lowest level is if the emergency services are there to pick up pieces when car crashes/heart attacks happen - those staff were deployed on covid last time. The public weren't able to go to far from home which kept the number of accidents down to a minimum as there was only skeleton staff for such services.

This time they want to keep NHS services functioning that are the safety net that enable us to keep a certain amount of the economy going. People generally go to hospital to get better, not to die.

It takes a toll on the staff and they will be in a position of having to decide, if you or your dc arrive after a big car crash and require some form of life support that the person with Covid they've been caring for is now making good progress etc. Sophie's choice for NHS staff.

So yes, Covid didn't kill you or your dc, but someone else receiving support for Covid/medical staff ill with covid etc may well have removed chance of surviving that terrible accident.

There are only so many beds and medical staff to treat patients. Even if you are happy to die and run the risk, do you expect the staff to want to be in that position?

They aren't the army and haven't signed up for a war. We can't treat our NHS staff like that and expect them to dust themselves down again and carry on.

There seems to be an intellectual exercise in how exasperated some people are that we should just let covid run free - it isn't just about how many people Covid kills, it is keeping it at a level that the NHS can cope with and still be available for emergency services. It is that simple, we are following rules to enable our society to run at a basic level during a pandemic.

It is about an emergency service being available to you and your family when an accident happens this winter - they do every year, and NHS are overwhelmed every winter.

Yes in the past, day to day life may not have been so affected by a pandemic, but life has never been as fast paced as a modern society is today. The NHS are stretched normally coping with drunks, drugs, violence, crashes, fights, heart attacks etc.

It really is a very simple person that compares a pandemic in a modern fast paced society left to run through the population to a 1950s society and not understand the differences/consequences.

No-one wants this, but the bottom line is there are only so many people to pick up the pieces. Yes clearly, economically the consequences are terrible, but there is not a good choice - just a decision that has to be made and thankfully it's not sat on our shoulders.

shinynewapple2020 · 31/10/2020 22:12

I don't want another lockdown . I don't think anyone actually wants it . Just accepting that as current measures aren't having the desired effect , that we may need to bring in some short term harder measures .

I also don't think that there is anyone looking forward to more furlough and family time (and that was a bit snippy how you wrote that). Anyone who was previously furloughed will have already lost quite a bit of money and surely not looking forward to going back into reduced income again . Not to mention being stuck at home .

It's frustrating but can see why it's being done .

MoleSmokes · 31/10/2020 22:53

The appropriate response to inadequate heath care provision is to recommission and staff the Nightingale Hospitals not a national Lockdown. This is a ludicrous response.

My dog was going berserk with fireworks going off so I missed a lot of the detail of announcements tonight.

Did they clarify whether “Covid patients” were people in hospital being treated for Covid or patients who tested positive but were being treated for other reasons?

I caught the bit where someone from the NHS was saying that the pressure was on regular hospital beds because they needed to keep patients who tested negative separate from those who tested positive. Also that there is no extra pressure on ICU beds at the moment.

If the Nightingale Hospitals were always a PR stunt and could not be staffed then the Government needs to come clean. At the very least we are owed an explanation why they have gone for Lockdown “to save the NHS”.

MoleSmokes · 31/10/2020 22:54

Oops! As I posted it was on the TV that Nightingale Hospitals are going to be used. All of them??

SheepandCow · 31/10/2020 23:33

Who's going to staff the nightingales?
Robots? I know some have performed surgery but so far it's been supervised by humans.

SheepandCow · 31/10/2020 23:35

I just hope we won't see lots of unessential 'work' trips. I hope I'm just being too cynical. Might be worth checking out airport and flight radar info over the next month. I'm too untrusting?

MummaBear4321 · 01/11/2020 00:00

@SheepandCow

I just hope we won't see lots of unessential 'work' trips. I hope I'm just being too cynical. Might be worth checking out airport and flight radar info over the next month. I'm too untrusting?
Speaking of travelling for work only, does anyone know anything about international travel for care? My mother is due to come to the UK from Ireland to care for my aunt after she has surgery on Friday. My aunt lives alone, and will have nobody else if my mom cant fly in. Saying work only is pretty restrictive considering caring for a sick family member is pretty essential, but there are mumblings about flights being grounded etc.
SheepandCow · 01/11/2020 00:07

I would hope providing care counts as essential travel @MummaBear4321
(Far more essential than some of the work trips we'll see no doubt).

In a way the caring in your mother's case is (unpaid) work. I don't know the situation with Ireland? Will she be allowed in and out? I assume they're allowing compassionate emergency travel?
I hope your aunt's surgery goes well.

MummaBear4321 · 01/11/2020 00:16

Yes she can travel in and out of Ireland for care of a vulnerable person. Also, the airport has no restrictions on travel. She does have to quarantine when she gets back but she is prepared to do that. She is now worried about how she proves her travel is essential, or if the flights are cancelled, or if she cant get out of the UK to go home. It's an odd one, saying its work only. I dont know if they will even be checking or could even check.

SirChing · 01/11/2020 01:21

Sorry, not had chance to read the whole thread.

Do the people whining that they don't want to lock down due to low levels in their areas, realise that huge swathes of the country were in that position during the first lock down? And just got the fuck on with it?

Oliversmumsarmy · 01/11/2020 09:16

SirChing
I think people are saying they don’t want lockdown because they don’t work and after the first 4 months of lockdowns a lot of people just can’t afford to be locked down again.

Yesterday we lost 100% of our family income.
Myself dd and Ds have just lost our jobs. Again. Dp doesn’t work so we are back on UC
Try living off £550 per month (our discounted council tax and water rates are £327 per month alone.

And at the end of the lockdown deaths will continue to rise

Flyonawalk · 01/11/2020 09:19

I don’t want a lockdown. It makes minimal difference to me personally, but I am appalled by the disregard for the youngest and most marginalised in our society.

Mrsfussypants1 · 01/11/2020 10:00

Signed. Dr Sunatra Gupta is on there, she's someone I highly respect.

MercyBooth · 01/11/2020 18:01

@Mrsfussypants1

Found this article this morning.

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-8899277/Professor-Sunetra-Gupta-reveals-crisis-ruthlessly-weaponised.html

A contagion of hatred and hysteria: Oxford epidemiologist PROFESSOR SUNETRA GUPTA tells how she has been intimidated and shamed for backing shielding instead of lockdown

Lockdown is a blunt, indiscriminate policy that forces the poorest and most vulnerable people to bear the brunt of the fight against coronavirus. As an infectious diseases epidemiologist, I believe there has to be a better way.

That is why, earlier this month, with two other international scientists, I co-authored a proposal for an alternative approach — one that shields those most at risk while enabling the rest of the population to resume their ordinary lives to some extent.

I expected debate and disagreement about our ideas, published as the Great Barrington Declaration.

As a scientist, I would welcome that. After all, science progresses through its ideas and counter-ideas.

But I was utterly unprepared for the onslaught of insults, personal criticism, intimidation and threats that met our proposal. The level of vitriol and hostility, not just from members of the public online but from journalists and academics, has horrified me.

I am not a politician. The hurly-burly of political life and being in the eye of the media do not appeal to me at all.

I am first and foremost a scientist; one who is far more comfortable sitting in my office or laboratory than in front of a television camera.

Of course, I do have deeply held political ideals — ones that I would describe as inherently Left-wing. I would not, it is fair to say, normally align myself with the Daily Mail.

I have strong views about the distribution of wealth, about the importance of the Welfare State, about the need for publicly owned utilities and government investment in nationalised industries.

But Covid-19 is not a political phenomenon. It is a public health issue — indeed, it is one so serious that the response to it has already led to a humanitarian crisis. So I have been aghast to see a political rift open up, with outright abuse meted out to those who, like me, question the orthodoxy.

At the heart of our proposal is the recognition that mass lockdowns cause enormous damage.

We are already seeing how current lockdown policies are producing devastating effects on short and long-term public health.

The results — to name just a few — include lower childhood vaccination rates, worsening cardiovascular disease outcomes, fewer cancer screenings and deteriorating mental health.

Such pitfalls of national lockdowns must not be ignored, especially when it is the working class and younger members of society who carry the heaviest burden.

I was also deeply concerned that lockdowns only delay the inevitable spread of the virus. Indeed, we believe that a better way forward would be to target protective measures at specific vulnerable groups, such as the elderly in care homes.

Of course, there will be challenges, such as where people are being cared for in their own multi-generational family homes.

I am certainly not pretending I have all the answers, but these issues need to be discussed and thrashed out thoroughly.

That is why I have found it so frustrating how, in recent weeks, proponents of lockdown policies have seemed intent on shutting down debate rather than promoting reasoned discussion.

It is perplexing to me that so many refuse even to consider the potential benefits of allowing non-vulnerable citizens, such as the young, to go about their lives and risk infection, when in doing so they would build up herd immunity and thereby protect the lives of vulnerable citizens.

Yet rather than engage in serious, rational discussion with us, our critics have dismissed our ideas as ‘pixie dust’ and ‘wishful thinking’.

This refusal to cherish the value of the scientific method strikes at the heart of everything I, as a scientist, hold dear. To me, the reasoned exchange of ideas is the basis of civilised society.

So I was left stunned after being invited on to a mid-morning radio programme recently, only for a producer to warn me minutes before we went on air that I was not to mention the Great Barrington Declaration. The producer repeated the warning and indicated that this was an instruction from a senior broadcasting executive.

I demanded an explanation and, with seconds to go, was told that the public wouldn’t be familiar with the meaning of the phrase ‘Great Barrington Declaration’.

And this was not an isolated experience. A few days later, another national radio station approached my office to set up an interview, then withdrew the invitation. They felt, on reflection, that giving airtime to me would ‘not be in the national interest’.

But the Great Barrington Declaration represents a heartfelt attempt by a group of academics with decades of experience in this field to limit the harm of lockdown. I cannot conceive how anyone can construe this as ‘against the national interest’.

Moreover, matters certainly are not helped by outlets such as The Guardian, which has repeatedly published opinion pieces making factually incorrect and scientifically flawed statements, as well as borderline defamatory comments about me, while refusing to give our side of the debate an opportunity to present our view.

I am surprised, given the importance of the issues at stake — not least the principle of fair, balanced journalism — that The Guardian would not want to present all the evidence to its readers. After all, how else are we to encourage proper, frank debate about the science?

On social media, meanwhile, much of the discourse has lacked any decorum whatsoever.

I have all but stopped using Twitter, but I am aware that a number of academics have taken to using it to make personal attacks on my character, while my work is dismissed as ‘pseudo- science’. Depressingly, our critics have also taken to ridiculing the Great Barrington Declaration as ‘fringe’ and ‘dangerous’.

But ‘fringe’ is a ridiculous word, implying that only mainstream science matters. If that were the case, science would stagnate. And dismissing us as ‘dangerous’ is equally unhelpful, not least because it is an inflammatory, emotional term charged with implications of irresponsibility. When it is hurled around by people with influence, it becomes toxic.

But this pandemic is an international crisis. To shut down the discussion with abuse and smears — that is truly dangerous.

Yet of all the criticisms flung at us, the one I find most upsetting is the accusation that we are indulging in ‘policy-based evidence-making’ — in other words, drumming up facts to fit our ideological agenda.

And that ideology, according to some, is one of Right-wing libertarian extremism.
According to Wikipedia, for instance, the Great Barrington Declaration was funded by a Right-wing think-tank with links to climate-change deniers.

It should be obvious to anyone that writing a short proposal and posting it on a website requires no great financing. But let me spell it out, since, apparently, I have to: I did not accept payment to co-author the Great Barrington Declaration.

Money has never been the motivation in my career. It hurts me profoundly that anyone who knows me, or has even a passing professional acquaintance, could believe for a minute that I would accept a clandestine payment for anything
I am very fortunate to have a house and garden I love, and I couldn’t ask for more material wealth than that. Far more important to me are my family and my work. Yet the abuse continues to flood in, increasingly of a personal nature.

I have been accused of not having the right expertise, of being a ‘theoretical’ epidemiologist with her head in the clouds. In fact, within my research group, we have a thriving laboratory that was one of the first to develop an antibody test for the coronavirus.

We were able to do so because we have been working for the past six years on a flu vaccine, using a combination of laboratory and theoretical techniques. Our technology has already been patented and licensed and presents a rare example of a mathematical model leading to the development of a vaccine.

Even more encouraging, however, is that there is now a groundswell of movements — Us For Them, PanData19 and The Price of Panic, to name but three — seeking to give a voice to those, like me, who believe that the collateral damage of lockdown can be worse than the virus itself.

On Thursday, a broad coalition was launched under the banner of Recovery. Drawing people from across the mainstream of political views, the movement is calling for balance and moderation in our response to Covid-19, backed by a proper public debate and a comprehensive public inquiry.

I am delighted that it has received such a level of support.

For, ultimately, lockdown is a luxury of the affluent; something that can be afforded only in wealthy countries — and even then, only by the better-off households in those countries.

One way to go about shifting our perspective would be to catalogue all the ways in which lockdowns across the world are damaging societies. At present, I am collaborating with a number of colleagues to do just this, under the banner www.collateralglobal.org.

For the simple truth is that Covid-19 will not just go away if we continue to impose enough meaningless restrictions on ourselves. And the longer we fail to recognise this, the worse will be the permanent economic damage — the brunt of which, again, will be borne by the disadvantaged and the young.

When I signed the Great Barrington Declaration on October 4, I did so with fellow scientists to express our view that national lockdowns won’t cure us of Covid.

Clearly, none of us anticipated such a vitriolic response.

The abuse that has followed has been nothing short of shameful.

But rest assured. Whatever they throw at us, it won’t do anything to sway me — or my colleagues — from the principles that sit behind what we wrote.

Professor Sunetra Gupta is an infectious disease epidemiologist and a professor of theoretical epidemiology at the Department of Zoology, University of Oxford. Her fee for this article has been donated to The Childhood Trust, a charity which fights to alleviate the impact of child poverty.

Mrsfussypants1 · 01/11/2020 18:11

Thank you for the link MercyBooth

MercyBooth · 01/11/2020 18:17

No worries. I am disgusted at the way she has been treated.

Mrsfussypants1 · 01/11/2020 18:22

Same, this goes back I'm sure to a previous smear campaign against her.

MercyBooth · 01/11/2020 18:24

Oh i hadnt really heard of her till all this.

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