To ask how you came to support Welsh independence?

[TrufflyPig]

Since there was some call for an Annibyniaeth thread on another discussion I thought I would start one. I’d be interested to hear your stories of how you came to support the cause.

Were you always for independence? If not what changed your mind?

I’ll start:

I am actually English, I came to Wales for university nearly 20 years ago and have been here ever since. I have lived in various places throughout Wales over the years. I am married to a Welsh man and have two children.

Like many others I used to laugh at the thought of Wales ever becoming an independent country, the idea seemed so far fetched and ludicrous. I believed a lot of what was said: Wales can’t afford it, it doesn’t have the infrastructure, only the Plaid lot want it etc etc. I even voted no to more devolved powers, I believed in a United Kingdom.

When Scotland had their referendum my husband started to support the idea that Wales could do it too, I still didn’t think so one bit.

Then Brexit happened, I voted remain and I was honestly shocked and upset by the result. I watched the Scottish reaction thinking I would be so angry if I were them, they were warned they wouldn’t get the same EU benefits that they already had if they chose independence but now they have to leave anyway.

So I started looking into it, Scotland seemed to have a lifeline for getting back into EU and
I wanted that too. I also liked Leanne Wood the newly appointed Plaid Cymru leader at the time, I thought her appointment was a bold choice and it might change the image of the party.

I also started to research how smaller nations were using renewable energy as a major income source and Wales was mentioned as a country with potential for this. I started a new job and worked alongside someone who has stood for Plaid Cymru in the assembly elections who sent me links to articles about independence and I would say I become ‘Indy curious’.

What tipped me over the edge was the election last year. I felt helpless. It doesn’t matter how Wales votes one bit. Even if every seat in Wales and Scotland had gone for Labour it would not have been enough to overturn the English Conservative majority.

I put off fully joining Yes Cymru until about a month ago though. The constant anti-devolution rhetoric over Covid restrictions in the media has made me want to be more pro-active in supporting independence. I’m not the only one. Support for Annibyniaeth is at an all time high.

Pondering on languages again ... wasn't there a thread not that long again where a poster was really disgruntled that a job in Wales had a requirement that the applicants were Welsh speakers ?

One of the reasons I (used to - Covid has fucked a lot up) like popping across the Marches was to experience that delicious frisson of seeing familiar sights in Welsh. Postboxes, roadsigns. Although I'd never disgrace myself by actually trying to pronounce them (I got as far as page 7 in my book when mutations were introduced, and I never picked it up since ...)

@SerendipityJane I am learning Welsh, it’s difficult but once you get going to can quickly progress. I can understand a conversation around me now (though I’m often not confident enough to join in).

TrufflyPig - thank you, I'm glad it was useful not simply over-long. ;)

Zeb1 - it sounds as though some of your frustration and anger here is built around a perception that the Welsh independence movement seeks to disavow the uglier aspects of a populist movement its nation is complicit in. I can understand that, but I think it's a complex matter and that Brexit and the populism behind it, intersected with many existing inequalities in different areas, in different ways.

We can argue back and forth over relative levels of racism against different groups in different areas. London has welcoming and racist elements. So does Wales. I'm genuinely really, really sorry you experienced the shittier parts of the country when you visited.

That said, Brexit vote cut across traditional party affiliations. Some Business-minded Conservatives were horrified, while some working-class Labour voters in some areas were captivated.

The class-based cultural identity of the Welsh working class historically aligned strongly with the working class identity of the industrial North of England where a lot of similar voting patterns can be observed. If we accept the theory that Brexit was - whether misguided or not, whether racist or not, whether rational or not - a response to a feeling of disaffection after 40 years of post-industrial decline, how can we address that without addressing the root cause?

If you want Wales to get its own house in order, to answer for its part in a disasterous choice for the country? We need the tools to address the socioeconomic conditions that let that level of anger and prejudice take hold. Tools the Senedd doesn't have, and solutions Westminster doesn't seem interested in enacting.

Tying Wales to the UK to make it look at what it's done, because it forfeited some "moral" right to independence? What will that achieve? It won't teach anyone a lesson, because it'll just continue the cycle of deprivation and poverty. Which, in my opinion, will make people more susceptible to populism, not less.

You're right - Wales needs to get its house in order.

What concerns me is that it can't while it's part of the UK, because it doesn't have the tools to do it. Because its elected representatives - the voice of the people - have no power. So how can its people feel listened to?

And what happens when people don't feel listened to? Demagogues and populists and poisonous ideas creep in.

OP, many people feel the way you do about Brexit. Practically half of the UK, in fact - it was hardly a landslide vote.

I do totally get your point that even if the whole if Wales voted for a non-Tory Party, there’s no guarantee of keeping them out.

At least Wales has some devolved powers though. Might not be what you want, but at least it’s better than nothing.

I voted LD and live in a LD borough of London. No chance for the LD on a national scale either. Mainly, I voted LD because I couldn’t vote for either of the other two. I think a lot of people felt very alienated by the last election, all over the UK.

You look at the so-called Red Wall constituencies that turned Tory and you wonder WTF is happening there; just as you look at the Trump supporters with bafflement. But, in the case of the UK, I don’t think more people actually became Tory (in terms of economic policy). They just voted to “Get Brexit Done.” No idea if they’re regretting it now or not. Who can say?

‘Get Brexit Done’ is basically the UK version of ‘America First’ and basically it’s a backlash to globalisation.

[quote TrufflyPig]@SerendipityJane I am learning Welsh, it’s difficult but once you get going to can quickly progress. I can understand a conversation around me now (though I’m often not confident enough to join in).[/quote]
If I lived there, maybe ... although I excuse my failings in Welsh by being able to get by in a few other languages. Although as this thread shows, Scots Gaelic is also going to cause some pain

Drifting slightly, but going back a few years I enjoyed "Three Men in a Boat" when Dara O'Briain got to show off his Gaelic chops whilst the Welsh and English ones were blundering about looking at knitwear

I guess I could keep BBC Wales on in the background to attune the ears a bit ...

On the language point, Welsh for Adults classes in the Cardiff area are currently being taught entirely online for the year and has subsequently seen a boom in people studying across the UK as location no longer matters. Prices have recently been revised downwards as well, in case anyone was curious about it.

On the devolution point, there was a 2004 referendum on greater English devolution which was 80% against. But it was 80% against in Wales in 79, and by 97 it passed. Same maths means that perhaps if they hold another in 2021 the same thing will happen...

I think a more federal model with greater devolved powers for regions and nations is the way to go. The UK isn't collapsing because it's devolving powers, it's collapsing because Westminster doesn't respect those powers and treat them seriously. The USA and Germany are examples of countries that have much stronger regional powers than the UK and have held firm cohesive national identities for a very long time. The US identity is currently very divided, but both sides identify as Americans.

Also, people in the traditional Labour-held seats who voted Tory and give the explanation that it was the result of decades if socio-economic deprivation stretching back to the Thatcher years; the decline if manufacturing and lack of investment since; feeling left behind etc etc.... Well, they’re certainly not wrong about the economic reality of it all, but let’s face it, if Brexit had never been an issue (no campaigns, no Cummings, no vote - ie not in the radar), these same people would have voted Labour. Really, it was an emotional response about immigration and I think people have to own that. There nothing else about the Tories that could have appealed to them.

The red wall in Wales fell far less than the red wall in the North of England - that's my point; I don't think you can correlate a Brexit vote with a Tory vote in a clean way within Wales.

I also don't think you can cleanly separate anti-immigrant attitudes from years of economic decline. Not when immigrants were used as distracting scapegoats for the government's lack of action. I'm not trying to play some "oh no, the poor racists!" card here. I'm not disavowing personal responsibility for ones own attitudes. But I do think that a line can be drawn between economic deprivation and the proliferation of populism and racist views.

Ultimately Wales has always been a left-leaning nation and the further right Westminster heads, the more alienated we are going to feel.

There is more to my journey to Independence. I only really began to develop a feeling of Welshness when I moved to England and learnt that we really do have a different culture. It’s taken me a very long time to understand that we could work as a separate nation.

Looking at the world and the success of smaller nations, it all seems to come down to how forward thinking they are. Small nations can change more quickly. We already have a push towards green energy and renewable thinking. It would be amazing to see wales lead the way in such things.

Whatever happens, the British Empire is finally over, and it’s going out with a whimper. England is just another small country with few natural resources and no forward thinking.

My grandmother (born 1896) was beaten in school for speaking Welsh.
She never forgot it.

“Whatever happens, the British Empire is finally over, and it’s going out with a whimper”

Er, I think you’ll find Wales was one of the four nations at the helm of the British Empire. What with being part of Britain and all South Wales has an Australian state named after it etc etc. Or do you just opt out of parts of history that aren’t convenient?

What is the actual economy in Wales? I agree that the days of the British Empire are long gone and, particularly, as a result of Brexit, England is just another small country. But what would that make Wales? Just another even smaller country with a huge areas of deprivation, inertia and particularly wet weather! Cardiff has been regenerated yes (with EU grants before Wales voted for Brexit ). But can Cardiff support Wales - really?

Even if Wales goes independent, a border won’t stop young people heading for London as they did now. It’s only down the M4, fgs. They’re hardly going to say, “Oh well, Wales is independent now, so I’ll turn down that banking opportunity in the city and just work in Barclays in Abergavenny.” And sustainable energy sounds all very commendable, but how will that provide enough jobs?

@Mrsorganmorgan

My grandmother (born 1896) was beaten in school for speaking Welsh. She never forgot it.

nor should we.

Even if Wales goes independent, a border won’t stop young people heading for London as they did now. It’s only down the M4, fgs. They’re hardly going to say, “Oh well, Wales is independent now, so I’ll turn down that banking opportunity in the city and just work in Barclays in Abergavenny.” And sustainable energy sounds all very commendable, but how will that provide enough jobs?

But will independent Welsh or Scots be able to get a Visa to work in England / London?
England pretty much voted out the EU to get control of borders and immigration. Don't think independent Welsh or Scots will be free to take jobs in England that an English person could do.

Yes Cymru has had over 1000 new members in the past 24 hours!

South Wales has an Australian state named after it

Which in no way underscores the North/South divide alluded to upthread.