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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask how you came to support Welsh independence?

165 replies

TrufflyPig · 28/10/2020 15:08

Since there was some call for an Annibyniaeth thread on another discussion I thought I would start one. I’d be interested to hear your stories of how you came to support the cause.

Were you always for independence? If not what changed your mind?

I’ll start:

I am actually English, I came to Wales for university nearly 20 years ago and have been here ever since. I have lived in various places throughout Wales over the years. I am married to a Welsh man and have two children.

Like many others I used to laugh at the thought of Wales ever becoming an independent country, the idea seemed so far fetched and ludicrous. I believed a lot of what was said: Wales can’t afford it, it doesn’t have the infrastructure, only the Plaid lot want it etc etc. I even voted no to more devolved powers, I believed in a United Kingdom.

When Scotland had their referendum my husband started to support the idea that Wales could do it too, I still didn’t think so one bit.

Then Brexit happened, I voted remain and I was honestly shocked and upset by the result. I watched the Scottish reaction thinking I would be so angry if I were them, they were warned they wouldn’t get the same EU benefits that they already had if they chose independence but now they have to leave anyway.

So I started looking into it, Scotland seemed to have a lifeline for getting back into EU and
I wanted that too. I also liked Leanne Wood the newly appointed Plaid Cymru leader at the time, I thought her appointment was a bold choice and it might change the image of the party.

I also started to research how smaller nations were using renewable energy as a major income source and Wales was mentioned as a country with potential for this. I started a new job and worked alongside someone who has stood for Plaid Cymru in the assembly elections who sent me links to articles about independence and I would say I become ‘Indy curious’.

What tipped me over the edge was the election last year. I felt helpless. It doesn’t matter how Wales votes one bit. Even if every seat in Wales and Scotland had gone for Labour it would not have been enough to overturn the English Conservative majority.

I put off fully joining Yes Cymru until about a month ago though. The constant anti-devolution rhetoric over Covid restrictions in the media has made me want to be more pro-active in supporting independence. I’m not the only one. Support for Annibyniaeth is at an all time high.

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misosoup82 · 29/10/2020 12:51

@zeb1

If you want Welsh independence OP then you have every right to push for that.

What I am saying is, you completely undermine your cause with the “big bad England dragging us into Brexit” narrative. Wales did that to themselves.

Did you see this article that was posted on page 1? Makes for interesting reading-

“If you look at the more genuinely Welsh areas, especially the Welsh-speaking ones, they did not want to leave the EU,” Dorling told the Sunday Times. “Wales was made to look like a Brexit-supporting nation by its English settlers.”

About 21% (650,000) of people living in Wales were born in England, with nearly a quarter aged over 65. The country voted for Brexit by a majority of just 82,000.

Border towns and areas of central Wales with large English communities, such as Wrexham and Powys, recorded a higher proportion of leave votes, whereas Welsh-speaking areas such as Gwynedd and Ceredigion had high remain votes."

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/22/english-people-wales-brexit-research

zeb1 · 29/10/2020 13:04

miso - hmm, well could you not say that about anywhere though - eg. London voted Remain but only x% were actually born in London. Seems a bit far-fetched to me... I think if people from England or anywhere else have made Wales their home, then they are, to all intents and purposes, Welsh citizens. Just like I have made London my home and my vote counts as much as the next person’s round here- whether they were born in Wales or the North Pole.

Bikingbear · 29/10/2020 13:13

@ThisIsntMeHonestGuv

Living in England, I wish we had someone like Nicola Sturgeon in charge

We'd be willing to send you Ruth Davidson if that's any help? Halloween Grin

You can have Nicola if you want her, free to a good home.

Ruth now she is class. Don't be giving her way.

TrufflyPig · 29/10/2020 13:25

@zeb1 I really can’t argue your point that if you’ve made a home here your vote should count, I wouldn’t wish for my vote to count less here because I was born in England.

I think the issue the article raises is that wealthy English people are using Wales as a retirement/holiday home, it prices out local families, contributes little to the economy and from the looks of things changes the political map of Wales. It’s like they are buying a share rather than being an involved citizen.

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ThisIsntMeHonestGuv · 29/10/2020 13:49

Ruth now she is class. Don't be giving her way

Hahahaha, best laugh I've had today!

misosoup82 · 29/10/2020 13:52

[quote TrufflyPig]@zeb1 I really can’t argue your point that if you’ve made a home here your vote should count, I wouldn’t wish for my vote to count less here because I was born in England.

I think the issue the article raises is that wealthy English people are using Wales as a retirement/holiday home, it prices out local families, contributes little to the economy and from the looks of things changes the political map of Wales. It’s like they are buying a share rather than being an involved citizen.[/quote]
Also, English travel writer Mike Parker wrote about the issue of ‘white flight’ to rural Wales.

“Attacking racists, Parker, who himself moved from Birmingham some years ago, said: "The common defining feature is that their principal reason for leaving the English cities was to get away from multi-cultural society, from black and Asian people in particular, and they see rural Wales, with its largely white population, as a safe haven.

"To some extent, rural Wales has become the British equivalent of the American mountains inhabited by a sprinkling of paranoid conspiracy theorists, gun-toting final solution crackpots and anti-government obsessives."

Making his observations while editing the Rough Guide to Wales two years ago, Parker said: "I have lost count of the number of times when people from England who have spoken to me in pubs and shops have made racist remarks like, 'Isn't it nice here without the P**s?’. They notice I have a Midlands accent and immediately assume I am going to share their prejudice.”

Nick Griffin admitted that he moved to rural Wales to ‘escape’ multiculturalism.

www.hindustantimes.com/india/top-travel-writer-slams-brits-for-shunning-blacks-asians/story-OKlrPTvMLsXqfIaUBOZJsM.html

SerendipityJane · 29/10/2020 14:07

@ThisIsntMeHonestGuv

Living in England, I wish we had someone like Nicola Sturgeon in charge

We'd be willing to send you Ruth Davidson if that's any help? Halloween Grin

We've already got her. Ensconced in the Lords where she can lecture us on democracy.
FlightStrike · 29/10/2020 14:12

Welsh independence, as a movement, has an unusual amount of momentum at the moment, which most speculate is tied to the Brexit vote (probably predominantly the 48% who voted remain), and the Welsh Government's COVID response being strongly viewed as superior to Westminster's. This put devolution's practical effects squarely in the public eye in an unusual way.

The original poster is asking for personal stories about why people have changed their minds on independence - a timely question given the exponential growth of pro-independence movements like YesCymru. Her own personal experience relates to Brexit, but she is not furthering a claim that Wales' right to independent nationhood rests on mistreatment during Brexit.

Scotland's claim to independence doesn't rest on Brexit either. Zeb1 notes the Brexit referendum as something that enhances their "right" to be independent. It does not. The way EU membership was deployed as a threat during the original Scottish independence referendum, only to be snatched away from them anyway, increases their right to hold another referendum. It is a major, material change of circumstance that could be validly used to justify asking the question again now, rather than in a generation as was previously suggested. But it has absolutely nothing to do with their identity as a nation: a nation that should be allowed to voluntarily decide whether they remain in the UK. That is a separate matter.

The same is true of Wales. If we accept it as a nation, then it has the right to self-determine whether it wishes to voluntarily remain a part of the Union. This right is not based on its finances or its political alignment, those are simply things that will affect the choice its' people make.

If you question whether Wales is a nation, but London isn't, or Yorkshire isn't, well...what's the test? How do you determine nationhood? It's not easily done, but the Welsh have viewed themselves as distinct from the English, and maintained distinct cultural and linguistic traditions, for 800 years - despite an active campaign to integrate them. I'm not trying to draw some direct comparison here between the colonisation of Wales and horrors of what happened to many nations under Empire (nor to disavow Wales' and the Welsh's role that era). But they did try to beat the language out of us. They did try to turn us into an English county, and consistently, for centuries, that identity was not adopted.

So I don't think there's a clear line you can draw that says "this here, is a nation," but "this over here is a region". But I do think that as far as Wales is concerned, it's clearly a nation, and this is - for practical purposes - settled, or we wouldn't have a parliament.

If you are instead curious as to why someone might believe Wales would vote Brexit followed by independence when the former is historically aligned with right-wing concerns and the latter more aligned with the political left? Then that's a more interesting question.

It's not one I have an answer to, but I do believe that the Scottish referendum, Brexit and COVID has forced a lot of Welsh people to pay more attention to their position within the Union. While they may seem like polar opposites, it's worth noting that both are based on a belief that a distant governing body that knows little about your local issues shouldn't be in charge of you. A lot of the surrounding political calculation and culture are very different, but there is a common core.

A Welsh Brexiteer who wanted to wrest control back from the EU, only to see Wales' autonomy undermined by the Internal Market bill and similar, might feel like a little more leaving is just what's in order.

Or, the way Wales is treated in the aftermath of Brexit might be a sharp wake-up call that Leave was the wrong choice.

Or, over time, people's opinions may simply change. In 1979, 20% of the Welsh favoured devolution. In 1997, it was 50%. A referendum in 2011 on increasing devolutionary powers was 64% in favour. In 2021, perhaps the pendulum towards autonomy will have swung even further.

My personal story is similar to the original poster's. Until a few years ago, the idea of independence might be a romantic daydream but practically speaking, no, I thought we were better off in the Union and better off in the EU. I believed that the economic costs would be too high. We wouldn't collapse, of course, there are far poorer independent countries out there, but our standard of living would fall too far for me to find acceptable.

Now? I don't know that I'm fully committed to the idea still. It's hard to find unbiased economic information. But I'm definitely no longer as opposed as I was. The benefits of this broader association are disappearing. The EU has gone. The benefits of being in the UK lessen as the economic damage of Brexit becomes clear. If Scotland goes, it will be further damaged, and the political landscape will even less represent what the Welsh electorate value.

It's accurate to say that 40 MPs is a fair number based on population. But when those 40 MPs rarely reflect anything like the make-up of the English MPs, the decisions that get made rarely reflect the concerns of Wales. This reflects the anger that many understand in Scotland - that they so violently opposed leaving the EU, but must anyway. Wales elects MPs on a manifesto that will never likely be enacted. To an extent yes, when your area is opposed to the majority of the country, you suck it up. But when it's so consistent and so continual, people will begin to ask how long they have to suck it up for, and what they are getting out of the arrangement.

We are told we get economic support. But really, it's hard to know how much. It's been 40 years since coal died, and the Union has done a terrible job of lifting us out of poverty. Welsh Conservatives would place the blame for that at the feet of the Welsh Senedd but it's hard to see how when economic policy has been devolved piecemeal and is still very limited. They didn't even have tax varying powers til last year. Capital projects that might have rejuvenated areas in serious need, like the Swansea tidal lagoon, get nixed at Westminster, despite Senedd support. Valuable natural resources like water get pumped over to England essentially at cost, run by English businesses, so it's never reflected in our GDP.

It's a difficult issue, but I definitely feel there's been a sea change.

TrufflyPig · 29/10/2020 14:17

Wow @FlightStrike I’m floored by that post. Really informative, you have a way with words that I sadly do not. Thank you for your story.

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SerendipityJane · 29/10/2020 14:20

It's accurate to say that 40 MPs is a fair number based on population. But when those 40 MPs rarely reflect anything like the make-up of the English MPs, the decisions that get made rarely reflect the concerns of Wales

People really should listen to old gags - they're very wise.
In this case the observation that democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding on dinner

And I've often wondered what if the notion of pure "majority" was extended from Brexit - where mysteriously it was the Word of God - and other areas. Say everywhere - where women very slightly outnumber men. Why aren't we ignoring the 49.9% men of the population the same way were were told we had to ignore remainers ?

EL8888 · 29/10/2020 14:20

I’m English but Irish descent. If the Welsh want to be independent then l think let them get on with it. It’s a bit like telling people they can’t get divorced which is ridiculous and controlling

zeb1 · 29/10/2020 14:22

To be honest, I think it’s getting a little desperate when you have to blame / deflect the Welsh Brexit vote onto “English immigrants” Grin. There are plenty of English-born people living in Scotland too, I’m sure - would the same not apply there? What about all the Welsh who have left Wales for England ? People have been moving / settling all over and throughout the UK since forever. If your vote only counted if you were born in that place, then hardly anyone’s vote would count for anything.

Would it not be more productive to look at Wales and say, “Well this is our population here and now. People come, people go for all sorts of reasons. It is what it is. Let’s deal with it and look at the problems within our country as it stands today.”

As for xenophobia - yes, you feel it in some very, countrified English areas where it’s all “let’s get the flags out” and rule Britannia (especially in older generations). I do absolutely realise this is a huge generalisation and no I’m NOT saying all countryside people are xenophobes, but I am saying that there is a different vibe in such areas. But there is also a different vibe in very rural, Welsh-speaking Wales too. Put it this way, I feel more “foreign” there than I do here. I don’t even feel foreign here. So that’s us a difference. There are different types of xenophobia and in different areas, but you do know it when you experience it.

ThisIsntMeHonestGuv · 29/10/2020 14:33

I think it would be a lot more productive to not be overly concerned with how Wales voted for years ago, and be more concerned with how the parties there feel currently.

But some people seem quite fixated on the Brexit vote as a stick to beat the Welsh with.

zeb1 · 29/10/2020 14:35

Also, I do actually think Wales should become independent, if that’s what people want. I don’t know what the economic situation would be like there. Maybe they would do better for themselves? Also, it means more money could be diverted to areas in England that need it. It could be that it’s a win-win for all. I am also pro-Catalan independence, if that’s what they want.

TrufflyPig · 29/10/2020 14:38

To be honest, I think it’s getting a little desperate when you have to blame / deflect the Welsh Brexit vote onto “English immigrants

I think it’s getting desperate when your only argument against independence for Wales (somewhere you’re don’t even live and from the sounds of it don’t enjoy visiting) is ‘well you have to stay forever tied to the UK because of something you voted for 4 years ago’. Despite many people saying that whilst Brexit helped form their choice on a personal level it is not the be all and end all for the independence movement.

If say in 5 years time support remains at 30%ish then there is no mandate for independence, if it’s more like 60% then there would be. Brexit does not even factor into that equation. It might help the cause if Brexit turns out to be a shit show but independence is not inherently tied to Brexit.

Would it not be more productive to look at Wales and say, “Well this is our population here and now. People come, people go for all sorts of reasons. It is what it is. Let’s deal with it and look at the problems within our country as it stands today.”

That’s exactly what we are doing and a discussion about independence is part of that national conversation.

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BeyondsConstantBangingHeadache · 29/10/2020 14:44

Just marking my place as this is a very interesting thread.

zeb1 · 29/10/2020 14:49

I’m not saying Wales has to be tied to anywhere. Hmm Your comments were along the lines of, “When I see the polarisation in the UK it makes me wonder if Wales would be better off independent and, for me, Brexit was the last straw... “ (paraphrasing you there, but that’s what your thread is about). I’m saying to you, that Wales is part of the polarisation - it’s within your communities and will be whether you’re in the UK or not.

It’s very tempting when unpleasant, populist agendas seem to sweep the world. Tempting to “other” people and shot the door - this was Brexit. But I’m not sure you can just shut the door, sadly. If you think we e got problems here, look at the US!

Porcupineinwaiting · 29/10/2020 14:59

I can see how an independent Wales might work, but an independent Wales outside of the EU no. And the Welsh voted to leave the EU.

SerendipityJane · 29/10/2020 15:13

@Porcupineinwaiting

I can see how an independent Wales might work, but an independent Wales outside of the EU no. And the Welsh voted to leave the EU.
are they not allowed to change their minds ? Although if they are, why can't the English ? Nothing is set in stone as my DM used to say.
TrufflyPig · 29/10/2020 15:18

@zeb1 I don’t really know how many more times I have to say this: Brexit is what made ME think differently about Welsh independence, I posted MY story and encouraged others to share theirs. I never said I was blind to the fact that Wales voted for it nor do I think Wales is a utopia where we dream in unicorns and rainbows. Not everyone agrees with me, they don’t have to.

I don’t want to shut any doors, independence isn’t about being ‘anti-english’ it’s about having a belief that Wales can do better as a nation governed by its own.

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Porcupineinwaiting · 29/10/2020 15:24

@SerendipityJane of course - if the EU will have them. But are they changing their minds? All I'm hearing is a cry to get away from England.

TrufflyPig · 29/10/2020 15:33

All I'm hearing is a cry to get away from England.

It’s not England that some want to get away from its Westminster/The Tories/The Eton establishment who do not represent them (see Jacob Rees-Mogg’s recent ‘unconstitutional border’ speech or listen to the jeers when Liz Saville-Roberts spoke Welsh in parliament).

I would rather the independence campaign not be about that though, I would prefer it to a more positive one about what Wales can offer as an independent nation, we could be a world leader in renewable energy for example. But that’s just me, others may think differently.

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SerendipityJane · 29/10/2020 15:34

[quote Porcupineinwaiting]@SerendipityJane of course - if the EU will have them. But are they changing their minds? All I'm hearing is a cry to get away from England.[/quote]
Worth noting that Welsh independence isn't synonymous with EU membership. As Iceland, Norway and Switzerland have shown, it's entirely possible to be an independent country and not a member of the EU. I'll give that nugget for free to any Indy campaigners, as the very first tactic Westminster will deploy to scare any wavering Welsh independence supporters is the line that "If you vote to leave the UK, you'll have to join the EU" (we'll put to one side the weird symmetry with 2014s IndyRef: If you vote to leave the UK you'll have to leave the EU ...)

Is there any appetite for keeping some Nazi gold deep in the Welsh valleys ? Sort of Celtic Swiss approach ?

RinderTinderNotRinderGrinder · 29/10/2020 15:34

@misosoup82 that bit from Mike Parker is spot on. It always made me so angry that the vile BNP lot like Nick Griffin moves to wales because of “people coming over ‘ere and invading our culture” without realising the irony that they are invading our culture by moving here.

Personally I don’t have an objection to anyone choosing to make Wales their home - the more the merrier, the more multicultural we get the richer our nation will be - but I get so angry at small minded people bringing their racism here. I loved the huge welcome my town gave the Syrian refugees that moved here. It was bloody lovely.

I’m lucky to live in an area that is hugely left-leaning and remain and welcoming.

I think it’s very hard for anyone who lives in London to see just how London-centric everything is; from the news to the decision-making.

I hope that one outcome of Covid is that London as a location becomes less and less relevant, as more people work from home and can live where they choose.

Things can’t be equal across the nations when there is no way the smaller countries can outvote England even combined.

At the very least I hope the upswell leads to greater devolved powers. And yes I think the north of England and possibly the West should be devolved too. I’m married to a Northerner who has been saying it for years.

TrufflyPig · 29/10/2020 15:38

At the very least I hope the upswell leads to greater devolved powers. And yes I think the north of England and possibly the West should be devolved too. I’m married to a Northerner who has been saying it for years.

Andy Burnham, King in the North?! Seriously though he’s excellent.

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