To ask how you came to support Welsh independence?

[TrufflyPig]

Since there was some call for an Annibyniaeth thread on another discussion I thought I would start one. I’d be interested to hear your stories of how you came to support the cause.

Were you always for independence? If not what changed your mind?

I’ll start:

I am actually English, I came to Wales for university nearly 20 years ago and have been here ever since. I have lived in various places throughout Wales over the years. I am married to a Welsh man and have two children.

Like many others I used to laugh at the thought of Wales ever becoming an independent country, the idea seemed so far fetched and ludicrous. I believed a lot of what was said: Wales can’t afford it, it doesn’t have the infrastructure, only the Plaid lot want it etc etc. I even voted no to more devolved powers, I believed in a United Kingdom.

When Scotland had their referendum my husband started to support the idea that Wales could do it too, I still didn’t think so one bit.

Then Brexit happened, I voted remain and I was honestly shocked and upset by the result. I watched the Scottish reaction thinking I would be so angry if I were them, they were warned they wouldn’t get the same EU benefits that they already had if they chose independence but now they have to leave anyway.

So I started looking into it, Scotland seemed to have a lifeline for getting back into EU and
I wanted that too. I also liked Leanne Wood the newly appointed Plaid Cymru leader at the time, I thought her appointment was a bold choice and it might change the image of the party.

I also started to research how smaller nations were using renewable energy as a major income source and Wales was mentioned as a country with potential for this. I started a new job and worked alongside someone who has stood for Plaid Cymru in the assembly elections who sent me links to articles about independence and I would say I become ‘Indy curious’.

What tipped me over the edge was the election last year. I felt helpless. It doesn’t matter how Wales votes one bit. Even if every seat in Wales and Scotland had gone for Labour it would not have been enough to overturn the English Conservative majority.

I put off fully joining Yes Cymru until about a month ago though. The constant anti-devolution rhetoric over Covid restrictions in the media has made me want to be more pro-active in supporting independence. I’m not the only one. Support for Annibyniaeth is at an all time high.

I’m really enjoying everyone’s stories on here. Such an interesting conversation, and a once almost unthinkable one.

What does everyone think might happen to Wales if Scotland gains independence?

I wouldn’t necessarily support it. Wales couldn’t survive on its own, but if they want to try absolutely let them as long as they don’t come back to us when it all goes tits up.

It’s the same as my opinion on Scottish independence, but Wales has even less chance of surviving than Scotland does.

@emilyfrost I’m interested to see what sources you used to come up with that analysis. Would you be able to share?

There is a good link previously in this thread explaining the economics of independence.

I would dearly love Wales to follow Scotland if they get Independence. A Wales/Scotland/Ireland union would be brilliant. Sadly I don’t think that will ever happen and Im not sure Wales would survive on our own. It is something I have been thinking about for a while. Drakeford kind of confirmed it today during his Q&A session.

There again he is retiring next year so maybe we’ll have a First Minister who believes in Wales. Who knows? This CV thing is taking precedence over everything at the moment and as a result of the UK and Welsh Governments handling of the crisis I know which side of the border Id rather be. If it ever happens I’ll be putting my X for Independence.

[quote Curiositykilledthecat113]@SerendipityJane Scotland does have a language. I wonder why it isn’t used anymore... oh wait it’s because England eradicated it and beat children who spoke Gaelic instead of English.[/quote]
My Granny was one of those children, along with her siblings. When they were all born in the late 19th Century Gaelic was common as a first language in the area but by the time her youngest sister died in the early 1990s she was the last living speaker of the dialect and it died with her.

I believe the same thing happened in Wales and Cornwall (and is still happening in many places across the world).

I also believe that if Scotland attempts to break away Shetland will become independent like the Isle of Man or will link up with Norway it will not remain part of Scotland

At the moment that movement is very much a minority belief. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but all the major transport links are with Scotland and the younger generation of shetlanders very much feel part of Scotland, as many of them study there.

Its possible, but a lot of work would need to be done to get people persuaded.

There again he is retiring next year so maybe we’ll have a First Minister who believes in Wales

I think he does but he has to tow the party line. The key to independence is getting Welsh Labour on board I think.

OP, by all means go for Welsh independence, but you can’t use Brexit as a reason. Overall Wales voted for Brexit! God knows why. On that reasoning, Greater London should go independent.

@zeb1 Brexit isn’t the reason, it was an event that acted as a catalyst for some people (like me) to change their minds. You can’t deny that Brexit changed the political landscape of the UK, I think personally for the worse.

OP, by all means go for Welsh independence, but you can’t use Brexit as a reason. Overall Wales voted for Brexit!

So? Of course op can use Brexit as a reason. Just because some people voted for Brexit doesn't mean the op has to like it. It wasn't so long ago that the Welsh government rejected the Brexit bill.

The tide is turning on Brexit in Wales too:

www.euractiv.com/section/eu-elections-2019/news/wales-dubbed-a-remain-nation-after-eu-vote/

I have no connection with Wales or Scotland, and would prefer them to stay part of the UK, though it should be 100% up to them. I think the best approach is just to devolve powers up to the point that there would be no net support for doing so further. I'd be surprised if that ended up with complete separation. (Wanting to be closer to the EU than England is the only reason I think would justify full separation.)

To give an example, it could be perfectly possible for them to have 100% control of tax, benefits and healthcare including health policy. That would cover most things people care about. (Other than EU membership.)

What I mean is, if you live in Wales, you can’t really blame England for Brexit! You need to be looking a bit closer to home on that one.

Yes politics is more polarised than ever before as a result if Brexit. That goes without saying. But I voted Remain in SW London. I don’t know a single person who voted Leave. This is a comparatively wealthy /prosperous area by London standards, let alone the UK as a whole. Yet our borough (Richmond) went LD because people refused to vote for the Tory’s on the “Get Brexit Done” platform. Next door, the wealthy borough of Wandsworth went Labour. Does London get to go independent please? There’s 9 million of us.

Oh this thread makes me so sad. I'm English, but on the South West coast. Closer to Wales than my own nearest city and I love it.

I loathe the Tories and everything they stand for and was gutted by the Brexit vote. It makes me so sad the way the country is going so I can see why welsh/scottish independence might become popular. Feels super shitty to be on the 'wrong' side though!

What I mean is, if you live in Wales, you can’t really blame England for Brexit! You need to be looking a bit closer to home on that one.

Agree totally. I’m not saying I speak for everyone in Wales, I’m just saying for me personally it was a turning point in my thinking. A huge appeal of independence is a chance to potentially rebuild a relationship with Europe and I don’t think that Westminster are offering that to anyone at all.

In fact I think they are going out of their way to piss off the EU and even people who voted leave realise that you won’t achieve anything by doing that. Independence doesn’t mean automatically rejoining the EU but it does mean a chance to wipe the slate clean and potentially make separate trade and movement arrangements with them.

@emilyfrost

I wouldn’t necessarily support it. Wales couldn’t survive on its own, but if they want to try absolutely let them as long as they don’t come back to us when it all goes tits up.

It’s the same as my opinion on Scottish independence, but Wales has even less chance of surviving than Scotland does.

These comments never fail to make me laugh.

I wonder when people will realise that England relies heavily on the resources of the other U.K. countries.... why do you think they’re so keen not to have Wales and Scotland, particularly Scotland, become independent.

You know, if we’re such a drain on ‘your’ resources?

I support any move towards independence for Wales. And I think it’s now inevitable for Scotland to become independent.

Yes, I agree Brexit was a turning point, but the fact is, it was a turning point that Wales, as a nation, voted for.

I have every sympathy for Scottish independence because, as a nation, they voted Remain, so why the hell should they be dragged I understand this shit show. I hope the get independence off the back of this and good luck to them.

The same can not be said for Wales, unfortunately.

Yes, the “tide may be turning” in Wales, but it’s a bit late for that now!

How many people are there in Wales - 1 or two million. There are 9 million in London - mostly Remain voters. Can we send this “Get Brexit Done” govt to the people in other parts of the UK inc. Wales who voted for them and we’ll go independent please? Thankyou.

How many people are there in Wales

3.2 million actually.

I do apologise for underestimating the population if Wales. But it doesn’t change the way they voted, sadly.

Yes, I agree Brexit was a turning point, but the fact is, it was a turning point that Wales, as a nation, voted for.

I’m not sure why you are finding it so hard to grasp that this is my opinion, Brexit was the turning point for me personally, and it seems many others on this thread. I wasn’t going to lay down and say: ‘oh well better crack on and support this no deal arranged by the all knowing cabinet in Westminster then, let’s make the most of it, sunlit uplands and all that!’. I’m angry about it and this is my way of channeling it.

You don’t have to agree with it but your option that Brexit has been voted for and the nation is not allowed to discuss it or change their minds or heaven forbid try to find a way out of it that might not be open to those who live in England is pretty ludicrous. Democracy is constantly evolving.

What I mean is, if you live in Wales, you can’t really blame England for Brexit! You need to be looking a bit closer to home on that one

Well, considering research showed that it was English voters in Wales that tipped it to leave rather than remain, and the fact that to change the result to remain would have needed almost every leave vote in Wales to change to remain, whilst it would have needed about 2.5% of voters in England to change their vote, I'm not sure you can blame Wales for Brexit...

Of course you can disagree with Brexit OP, but you can’t argue for independence on behalf of an entire nation based in the fact that you personally don’t like the way things are going - when that nation itself voted for exactly what you perceive to be the problem!

On that basis, London has the strongest grounds for independence. As I say, I don’t know a single person who voted Leave, but we’re stuck with it aren’t we.

I do think Scotland has very good grounds for independence though and if I was Scottish, I would be livid.

Size of population doesn't mean much.

Countries such as Norway, Finland, ROI and New Zealand all have populations around 5 million.

Malta, Iceland and Luxembourg have populations well under 1 million.

Many independent states have populations in the 10s of 1000s (though to be fair they include tax havens like Andorra or Monaco)..

Independence is amazing, you're going to love it when it happens. (From ROI)

I don’t blame Wales for Brexit any more than other areas of the UK that turned in a Leave vote, but we are where we are and it’s a bit much for Leave regions including Wales to be playing the “woe is us” card now... It’s a joke, really.

If Wales had given a strong Remain vote, I’d be behind their independence cause all the way. But they didn’t.