To ask how you came to support Welsh independence?

[TrufflyPig]

Since there was some call for an Annibyniaeth thread on another discussion I thought I would start one. I’d be interested to hear your stories of how you came to support the cause.

Were you always for independence? If not what changed your mind?

I’ll start:

I am actually English, I came to Wales for university nearly 20 years ago and have been here ever since. I have lived in various places throughout Wales over the years. I am married to a Welsh man and have two children.

Like many others I used to laugh at the thought of Wales ever becoming an independent country, the idea seemed so far fetched and ludicrous. I believed a lot of what was said: Wales can’t afford it, it doesn’t have the infrastructure, only the Plaid lot want it etc etc. I even voted no to more devolved powers, I believed in a United Kingdom.

When Scotland had their referendum my husband started to support the idea that Wales could do it too, I still didn’t think so one bit.

Then Brexit happened, I voted remain and I was honestly shocked and upset by the result. I watched the Scottish reaction thinking I would be so angry if I were them, they were warned they wouldn’t get the same EU benefits that they already had if they chose independence but now they have to leave anyway.

So I started looking into it, Scotland seemed to have a lifeline for getting back into EU and
I wanted that too. I also liked Leanne Wood the newly appointed Plaid Cymru leader at the time, I thought her appointment was a bold choice and it might change the image of the party.

I also started to research how smaller nations were using renewable energy as a major income source and Wales was mentioned as a country with potential for this. I started a new job and worked alongside someone who has stood for Plaid Cymru in the assembly elections who sent me links to articles about independence and I would say I become ‘Indy curious’.

What tipped me over the edge was the election last year. I felt helpless. It doesn’t matter how Wales votes one bit. Even if every seat in Wales and Scotland had gone for Labour it would not have been enough to overturn the English Conservative majority.

I put off fully joining Yes Cymru until about a month ago though. The constant anti-devolution rhetoric over Covid restrictions in the media has made me want to be more pro-active in supporting independence. I’m not the only one. Support for Annibyniaeth is at an all time high.

Of course you can disagree with Brexit OP, but you can’t argue for independence on behalf of an entire nation based in the fact that you personally don’t like the way things are going - when that nation itself voted for exactly what you perceive to be the problem!

Of course you can.

You can argue for independence on any grounds you want - and it would be up to the public to decide what they feel about independence based on the arguments presented.

Given the shit show that is Brexit is entirely possible that enough people have changed their minds on it to make it a useful argument.

Pleased to have my arse handed to me over Socts Gaelic Makes Scottish independence more logical, and me even more sorry I've never had a chance to go to see the beauty of Scotland more - Skara Brae being on a long held bucket list.

The fact that Wales and Scotland need to seek permission from England for independence rather gives the lie to any notion of equality in the UK.

However, I do think the UK will break up. I think Scotland have a moral right to independence now and good luck to them. I also think Greater London should go independent, a bit like Singapore. Then Wales can be independent and after that it will be calls for Yorkshire independence and then probably Cornwall..,

Personally I don't blame Wales or England. There's a good percentage of sensible people in both areas. And a reasonable percentage of leave voters in NI and Scotland.

I blame Boris and Farage and every other person in a position of power that lied and told half truths and falsehoods in order to manipulate the electorate. Fuckers all of them, and I can't blame any person in any country for wanting to be free of Westminster. Other than Tory voters. They got what they voted for.

but you can’t argue for independence on behalf of an entire nation based in the fact that you personally don’t like the way things are going

Yes I can. That’s exactly what Yes Cymru are doing. They don’t like the current system, they want it to change, they’ve been gaining more and more momentum since Brexit. Anger and distrust are very powerful motivators for political change.

There is absolutely nothing to stop you from starting a campaign for London to become independent if that’s how you feel. You might find some likeminded people.

The fact that Wales and Scotland need to seek permission from England for independence rather gives the lie to any notion of equality in the UK.

Indeed!!!

I’m glad you’ve decided the order of succession @zeb1. We’ll fall in line accordingly.

“Given the shit show that is Brexit is entirely possible that enough people have changed their minds on it to make it a useful argument.”

Why should Wales get to “change their minds” though, when they have helped inflict this shitshow on other areas of the UK, that didn’t vote for this but are dumped with it?

Why should Wales get to “change their minds” though, when they have helped inflict this shitshow on other areas of the UK, that didn’t vote for this but are dumped with it?

Move to Wales, it’s lovely here!

Why should Wales get to “change their minds” though, when they have helped inflict this shitshow on other areas of the UK, that didn’t vote for this but are dumped with it?

What you mean like Wales had a Tory Government inflicted on us by English voters between 1979 and 1997 when for large swathes of that time returned not one single Tory MP?

If you want Welsh independence OP then you have every right to push for that.

What I am saying is, you completely undermine your cause with the “big bad England dragging us into Brexit” narrative. Wales did that to themselves.

Sorry, what?

People are no longer allowed to change their minds?

And don't forget that people all over the country voted for Brexit. And every vote counted as a vote for Brexit, regardless of what the percentage was in any specific area or country.

You say you don't blame Wales, but I'm not sure I believe you.

Wales did that to themselves

Nope, that would be impossible.

I'd be interested to see the North/South split here.

The North voted against devolution. I was always rather on the fence but seeing the contempt Drakeford has for the North I fear for my future in Wales despite my family being here for hundreds of years.

I live in a constituency that was 70% Remain. Yet unfortunately, this vote was not typical outside London, including Wales. But we’re still stuck with it. We can’t “change our minds” and blame everyone else.

What I am saying is, you completely undermine your cause with the “big bad England dragging us into Brexit” narrative. Wales did that to themselves

I’m only saying this once more then I’m done arguing because it seems to be the only point you have. Brexit is not the sole reason I support independence. It plays a part but it isn’t everything. Can you at the very least understand why Wales might want a say in managing its own affairs and distributing its own resources regardless of Brexit?

I live in a constituency that was 70% Remain. Yet unfortunately, this vote was not typical outside London, including Wales. But we’re still stuck with it. We can’t “change our minds” and blame everyone else

Indeed. You are, unfortunately, stuck with it.

Some of us have the possibility to not be stuck with it, and be able to fight for what we perceive to be better.

If you had that option, wouldn't you go for it?

I do agree that the state of the union as it stands is toxic and in need of massive overhaul. However, I’m not sure that Welsh independence is the right way to go right now, particularly with Brexit looming.

I do really dislike the nationalism. My recent family past saw a lot of migration from Scotland and Wales to England, and I care deeply about those ties and the countries. I’ve seen a lot of rhetoric that anyone who is English is completely ignorant of anything beyond the borders, and it’s simply not true. I also see little acknowledgment of how there are parts of England being completely failed by the government, with huge pockets of underdevelopment and political neglect - we aren’t magically in better positions just for being the other side of the land borders.

So I do think things need to change, but it needs to be a move away from London-centric life, and it needs to cover everyone. I just don’t think independence will necessarily be the best course of action.

Ok this is anecdotal, but here’s my perspective anyway.

It’s none of my business whether Wales wants to go independent or not. I am originally Spanish but have been living in London over 20 years. It is my home and we have brought up 4 children here. DH is from a Middle-Eastern country and came here as a young child with asylum-seeker parents.

I can honestly say, my family have never experienced xenophobia in London. I have to be honest that our experiences in Wales have felt very different.

About 2 years ago, my husband was returning from a climbing trip and they stopped for lunch in a pub. When he came out, the letter F had been carved into his car. We can only assume it was the beginning of “F* off” but the vandals got spooked. Who knows?

When my son went on a school trip to Wales to see some castles, they were with other schools as part of a wider organisation and, on two occasions, were referred to by tour guides (Welsh) as as “the Indian kids.” None of them have anything whatsoever to do with India! They complained and did, at least receive an apology for that.

I found Cardiff to be a lovely city, but I have to say, I have experienced walking into a pub in a more rural area and you can literally hear a pin drop. You notice these things when you’re not used to it.

So no, I don’t think Wales is all sunshine and rainbows. What I saw was a lot of deprivation and also a weird vibe in some pockets. The Brexit vote was 52% in Wales - in line with the UK as a whole, so no, Wales is not being dragged out of Europe against its will. Well, no more than the next place.

If people want Welsh independence for other reasons, well good for them and I’m sure there are valid reasons. But there are issues within Wales and it’s a bit naive to pretend that all unpleasant polarisation is taking place in England and all you have to do is step out. You have it within your communities.

we aren’t magically in better positions just for being the other side of the land borders

I'm in Scotland, and the perception I see is very much the opposite - that we are better off because we have a 'buffer' between us and Westminster.

That's is definitely a big divide politically between England and Scotland, and I have met many English people (admittedly in and around London) that just don't see it.

There's two types of nationalism, imo. The 'my country is better than yours' type, which is the kind Britain First etc are into and tends to be more insular, and the 'I want the best for my country' which is what I see from the Scottish independence supporters I know, and includes being part of the EU, and welcoming immigration.

Obviously we have both types here in Scotland, I would never say otherwise. But I hate the perception that Scottish independence supporters are nationalists in the sense that seems to be more prevalent in England. I suspect it isn't more prevalent, I suspect its just the louder voice because England doesn't 'need' to campaign for independence in the way that Scotland and Wales are.

I never once said there were no issues within Wales, I never once claimed we were being dragged anywhere against our will. In fact the majority of Wales don’t want independence at all.

I personally do and it’s a recent self discovery. I started the thread because I saw on another that there were a few people who recently joined Yes Cymru and I want to hear how they had come to that decision.

I’m sorry you had those experiences but I do hope you can see that not everyone here holds those beliefs. I’m not sure you can really get the measure of the place by visiting on occasion any more than I can tell you what it’s like to live in London from the handful of times I’ve been there.

Living in England, I wish we had someone like Nicola Sturgeon in charge.

Living in England, I wish we had someone like Nicola Sturgeon in charge.

I’m watching her speak now, she’s class.

Living in England, I wish we had someone like Nicola Sturgeon in charge

We'd be willing to send you Ruth Davidson if that's any help?

Personally, NC gets on my nerves, but actually less so these days than other politicians. Didn’t Scotland vote 62% Remain? I think it’s a disgrace that they’re being dragged out if the EU against the will of their nation. At the very least, they should be having a second referendum on Scottish independence in the wake of what has happened. It’s bad enough living in pro-Remain London, but I don’t understand why the Scottish haven’t taken to the streets in protest.

It’s surely only a matter of time before Scotland becomes independent? Just call a vote now, NS.