I'm sick of people from Northern England who voted tory complaining on the news

[ssd]

Suck it up. You voted for them. No one made you.

Everyone is entitled to have a moan, but seriously, WHY WHY WHY did you ever vote tory thinking they'd got your back?!?!

I keep reading here that people stopped voting Labour as Labour had been taken over by university educated elitists they felt they had nothing in common with anymore.... So they voted for Eton educated millionaires instead.
Also, people wanted a change, they wanted things done differently as their lives weren't getting any better.... So they voted back in the government that had been in power for years already...

Yeah that showed them..

Maybe listen to other reasons why for years people have turned away form Labour and why Leave won and why people want Brexit

The concerns and issues didn’t arise in the last 5/6 years that have been ongoing concerns for many years

Or just engage with those who share the same political ideas so you don’t have to hear those that disagree with you that have formed opinions of their own that have been influenced from their own experiences and carry on viewing them as stupid while patting yourselves on the back and reminding each other what superior beings you are

I don't recall patting myself on the back or feeling superior.
Maybe you could listen to others instead of presuming you know exactly what they really mean?

@MasterGland

Many people on the left voted leave because that was the true Socialist position. The EU is a neo liberal economic project , hence why JC has always been anti EU. Many socialists saw that they were voting against an institution that forbid state support of industry etc. (unless they were banks...). There was also a strong remain camp on the right, led by Ken Clarke, that believed we were too entwined with the EU to leave. A Burkean perspective. There was also some genuine racists, on the right and left, who misunderstood what a vote for leave meant. Assuming it would lead to less immigration. These are complex issues and it is frustrating to see the broad brush strokes that get bandied about.

Yes, I am not sure where it has happened, but there is a big misunderstanding by many people around what constitutes the left. That's not a criticism, it is now so widespread many people have only heard it from that perspective. But it prevents them understanding the situation.

For example this:

For years and years people have been ignored they were not listened to and here we are. Why the liberal left has become so detached from so many working class people (in other parts of Europe and in the states) is baffling at times

Liberals and the left are NOT the same. Liberals typically believe, economically, in little regulation, free trade, and movement of capital and movement of labour. They don't usually like protectionism, unions, or national support of certain industries. Socially they believe in individualism. These tend to be middle class values to a large extent, and also the values of capitalism.

Leftism is very different. Traditional conservatism is very different. In significant ways they are more like each other than they are like liberalism, which is why you sometimes see the working classes and the elites sympathetic to each other more than either are to the middle classes (it really isn't forelock tugging as some people, who apparently really don't believe in classism, like to call it.)

The LP used to be leftist but are now mostly liberal, and the Tories used to be conservative and are now mostly liberal. (So no need for the Liberal party, really.)

So the answer is, that the LP is out of touch with the working classes because they are no longer a working class party. They area liberal, middle class party, and their policies are those which are appealing to the values and needs of the middle classes.

@PurpleFlower1983

YANBU! How anyone in the working class towns of the North thought Boris and co and have any understanding at all about their lives or care for their welfare is completely beyond me.

* How anyone in the working class towns of the North who is poor, single parent/basically not one of the Old Boys network thought Boris and co and have any understanding at all about their lives or care for their welfare is completely beyond me.

Slight correction there, as you were.

If it walks like a Tory, talks like a Tory or stinks to high corrupt heaven like a Tory, you can bet you’re going to get utterly shafted

So @ssd I'm listening to you and hearing that are you agree you are not morally superior to people from the north of England who voted Tory?

Although to be fair, we’d have shafted waaaay sooner if JC got in!

Been shafted

@ssd

I keep reading here that people stopped voting Labour as Labour had been taken over by university educated elitists they felt they had nothing in common with anymore.... So they voted for Eton educated millionaires instead. Also, people wanted a change, they wanted things done differently as their lives weren't getting any better.... So they voted back in the government that had been in power for years already...

Yeah that showed them..

Neither party represents their interests. They, sensibly, don't care where any of them went to school. The middle classes aren't better for them than the rich, and don't like them any better.

But there were several good reason to not vote for Labour.

1. Labour was taking their votes for granted. But refusing to vote for them, it might make them wake up and throw them a few bones.

2. Their social policies were sen to be long term detrimental to the community, whereas both parties had detrimental economic policies.

3. The LP made it clear they despised them, even told people not to vote for them, whereas the Tories seemed indifferent and even conciliatory. You could doubt the sincerity of the Tories but the LP were clearly quite sincere about the things they said. Anyone would want to give them a great big FU.

Goose - thanks for your posts. You say, leftism has similarities with traditional conservatism in important ways - but not in a “forelock tugging” sense. How would you define the shared values?

@zeb1

Goose - thanks for your posts. You say, leftism has similarities with traditional conservatism in important ways - but not in a “forelock tugging” sense. How would you define the shared values?

Both have a very strong sense of place and community.

Both are communitarian rather than individualistic, and tend to see different sectors of society as interdependent. This takes different forms but they both tend to lend themselves to a kind of class analysis.

Both tend to see a place for things like state support of certain industries, or well placed protectionism, and economic localism.

Both put a strong emphasis on family as structuring the community, and other local community institutions as being best placed to provide community support.

Not always but both have within them traditions around environmentalism and conservation that have similar origins, again, related to localism and preservation of land and resources.

I suppose also I'd say both tend to be anti-statist. This has tended to transfer into "small-government" in some modern conservative rhetoric, and "grass-roots" in leftist rhetoric, but I think that would be a divide that could fairly easily be made into a common vision.

The most important determinant in how someone votes in the UK is now actually age rather than class. I read some really interesting analysis indicating that the seats the Tories won from Labour had a higher average age than the ones they retained, which would make sense. I'll have to try and dig it out.

Goose - thanks, but is there not a very fine line between having “a strong sense of place and community” and xenophobia?

If you don’t want your communities or the status quo in terms of interdependency to change, you’re not likely to welcome immigrants in, surely?

@zeb1

Goose - thanks, but is there not a very fine line between having “a strong sense of place and community” and xenophobia?

If you don’t want your communities or the status quo in terms of interdependency to change, you’re not likely to welcome immigrants in, surely?

There can be, but it's by no means necessary that they are both present.

Communities of that kind typically operate a lot on social relationships, and they are spacial oriented. People depend on each other. Most communities have the capacity to accept a certain amount of change, new people. That's in terms of economics, infrastructure, culture. The better the resources, infrastructure, and economics the more that can be integrated, and the more similar the cultures. But one you see stress in any of those areas, that capacity diminishes. And probably no community can just manage a massive influx compared to the population.

There seems to be a tendency among liberals to assume that communities are endlessly adaptable and resilient.

"There seems to be a tendency among liberals to assume that communities are endlessly adaptable and resilient."

As long as it's other people's communities....!

In any case, it's not like having a weak sense of place and a community mediated through paid help is a particular good thing, either.

I voted Lib Dem as I couldn't stand Jeremy Corbyn - irrespective of his policies - and I'm sure many others did as well. He's now getting his comeuppance with the Anti Semitism findings.

@Coffeeoverload

I’m simply giving you the viewpoint of the people I know in the north. Your response is to tell me their viewpoint is wrong. AKA still not listening. Not all northern communities are mining communities FYI... don’t know if you’ve ever been north?

My dad was born in the Durham coalfields and was close to weeping at what happened to the communities there. I didn’t say anyone was wrong, simply pointing out your initial post was inaccurate for the vast majority of the north east.

It can be a bit odd though being called a “liberal” as if it’s suddenly a dirty word. I live in SW London and I don’t think that we have any less if a sense of community than anywhere else. I know all my neighbours. When I go out locally, I’ll always bump into people. But what makes the community stronger is that nobody was born here. Well nobody I know and I’ve lived here 20 years. I would hate to live in a place where people were looked at as “newcomers,” by the “real population” or whatever. So if that makes me a liberal, I’ll take that. Anyway, the LDs got in here (Richmond-upon-Thames borough). If places want to just stay stuck in time with the same people for generations after generation, they will get left behind, or they die. It’s inevitable really.

Lots of people have been forced out of SW (and all other parts of) London but plenty who were born there do still live there.

The welcoming nature of London is fantastic btw. Just pointing out that, despite being in invisible to some, native born and bred SW Londoners do exist.

Also where I live there’s a very high proportion of bankers and similar city type jobs, entrepreneurs etc. It’s that kind of demographic and what the rest of the country would perceive as prime Tory land. But no, not at all - people (who let’s face it have the most to gain from this Tory govt) couldn’t bring themselves to vote Tory because “Get Brexit Done” was the absolute last thing they wanted. So our borough went LD. Putney went from Conservative to Labour! People living in houses worth millions would rather have the JC mansion tax and any tax he could throw at them than Brexit. That’s how strong the anti- Brexit sentiment is round here. I literally never met a single Brexit voter to this day. They’re either keeping very quiet, lying, or they’re older people. We were 70% Remain as were most other boroughs around here.

So yes, I do think people in most of London just look at the way people voted in other areas, just to “Get Brexit Done” with disbelief and there is a massive understanding gap. But also, I think people in certain regions outside London are totally clueless and misinformed about public opinion / sentiment here as well and how strongly we feel. It works both ways.

There is still some social housing left in SW London. Not everyone there is a banker. A reasonable number of working class people have not yet been socially cleansed away from their home area, family, and support network.

Brexit is a separate issue. One million Londoners voted to Leave.

Whether a good idea or bad, the reality is Brexiters (and Remainers) don't fit neatly into one near box. Both sides vary.

There's also the third group. The No Strong Opinion Either Way. As equally valid a view as Leave or Remain.

Also, I come from an absolutely shit part of Spain where some people want to be stuck in time like the museums. Then they moan that all the young people or “those who can” leave and “woe us us, we’re left behind.” Well if people are prepared to go where the work is, that’s life. Sorry.

‘ I would hate to live in a place where people were looked at as “newcomers,” by the “real population” or whatever. So if that makes me a liberal, I’ll take that. Anyway, the LDs got in here (Richmond-upon-Thames borough). If places want to just stay stuck in time with the same people for generations after generation, they will get left behind, or they die. It’s inevitable really.’

This. Unfortunately there are areas of the country unwelcoming to outsiders. They don’t understand that part of the reason places like London and Manchester thrive is because of incomers who add something else to the pot, diversity of people which leads to diversity of thought, competition, innovation, inward investment and growth. If you live in the type of town where the pub goes silent when someone new or foreign looking comes through the door then you’re town’s going to get left behind.