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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that Trump is not going to get re-elected?

923 replies

Anon778833 · 23/10/2020 20:27

There are still a few fringe types who think he’s going to get a landslide victory.

Personally I find this unlikely.

Any MNers from across the pond have a view more informed than myself?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
15
FOJN · 27/10/2020 13:40

The entire point of dogwhistles are that you can pretend not to hear them.

How very convenient for you and then you have enough front to comment on people arguing in bad faith.

You then tell us about Culture Warlords as if it has something to do with Trump and his supporters. It's a book about incels and white supremacists. Dog whistle, bad faith or both?

The book is journalists account of her on line (on the dark web) activism and encounters with these radicalised groups, she describes herself as an antifascist and thinks some violence in fighting fascism is justified. Do you think she supports the actions of Michael Reinoehl in Portland?

My interest is in the misinformation I read about current events, I like truth and accuracy.

user1471565182 · 27/10/2020 13:52

@HelloToMyKitty

'No, White Supremacist Richard Spencer Didn’t Seriously Endorse Joe Biden'

And Trump increased troops overseas by 30%. At best you could be described as misinformed, at worst an outright liar.

www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/white-supremacist-richard-spencer-didnt-endorse-joe-biden

HelloToMyKitty · 27/10/2020 14:07

And Trump increased troops overseas by 30%. At best you could be described as misinformed, at worst an outright liar

If you mean he sent troops to a new airbase in Saudi Arabia, sure. But he has pulled out troops from active war zones, which is what I am more concerned about.

He’s pulled troops from Syria and wants to pull troops from Afghanistan by the end of the year. What’s not to like about that?

The article you posted is a lot of waffling. It sort of forgets that the guy is virulently anti-Semitic and would not be supportive at all of Trump’s rather transparent pro-Israel stance.

Nancydrawn · 27/10/2020 14:08

Culture Warlords very explicitly talks about Trump. Interestingly, it's not as unidirectional as you assume. Some are pro-Trump, some anti-Trump. Many of these groups were excited by his candidacy, but some have become quite disillusioned. Some of the violent anti-Semites, for example, oppose him because they think he's been too friendly with Israel. As for the book itself, as I said, it has problems, and I'm not always on board with Talia Lavin, though I understand her better after reading even just the introduction of the book.

As for dogwhistles...I genuinely don't know what to say. If you don't think there's any subtext to Trump claiming that both Barack Obama and Kamala Harris aren't really citizens (he started as a birther before everything), or saying that Democratic congresswomen of color born in the United States should "go back to where they came from," or telling "suburban women" that they should thank him for "saving the suburbs" from low-income housing "with Corey [sic] Booker in charge"--if you don't think there's subtext, I don't think this is something we're going to see eye-to-eye on.

(I've left out the obvious things, like shithole countries, or "back to their huts," or saying a Mexican-American judge couldn't be impartial, etc.)

If you're genuinely interested in this, I'd read this article: www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/06/trump-racism-comments/588067/ It's pretty clear, including about the timeline around Charlottesville (there was a lot of time between his initial statement and his 'disavowal', which he walked back almost immediately).

But, look: I'm not saying you need to change your mind. If you don't look at those comments and think, that's problematic, then nothing I say today (or any other day) is going to convince you. I certainly don't think a post on an anonymous forum or one more book-or-article suggestion is going to do it--just as you're not going to convince me that these aren't problematic statements. I suppose we'll have to leave it at that.

Goosefoot · 27/10/2020 14:25

@MrsMariaReynolds

I'd love to think you'll be right Op, but you only have to look at the comments made by those Trump supporters in this thread salivating at the chance to discredit the Dems and anyone else who questions his actions to realise that, nah, America's gonna get **ed again.

There really are plenty of Americans dumb enough to fall for his shtick yet again.

Where do you see Trump supporters? There are people who understand why some vote for Trump, or think some of his policies might be better than some of Biden's. There are a fair number I'd say who support neither Biden nor Trump. Some who worry that media misinformation about Trump might have the opposite of the desired effect.

Not many of any that I see support him.

FOJN · 27/10/2020 14:31

I'm not saying you need to change your mind. If you don't look at those comments and think, that's problematic, then nothing I say today (or any other day) is going to convince you.

You must have missed my post which states I think Trump is an arsehole and I'm in the UK. My problem is the media reporting around Trump, there is an awful lot of bias. Hatred of the man seems completely disproportionate to his crimes and yet news outlets turn a blind eye to Joe Biden failings (plenty of footage of his various gaffs exists and information about his less than honourable conduct in his 47 years in politics ) and social media are censoring any negative stories about him. I think this should concern everyone. It's fine to be happy that the views of your opponent are misrepresented or silenced because some people find them unpalatable but what happens when your own views become unpalatable? I like having a vote and a voice and if I want to protect that then it is essential that I respect other people's right to the same even if I don't agree with them. Respecting diversity of opinion means not claiming I know better than someone what they mean when they speak, I wouldn't accuse someone of dog whistle bigotry because it fits my agenda. Part of good faith debate is engaging with what's actually been said and not what you think has been said.

Gothamgirl1970 · 27/10/2020 14:35

As a dual U.K. American citizen having lived here for the last 20 years, and being a life long registered Democrat once since I was 18 and eligible to vote, I voted for a non Democratic Presidential Candidate. Why ? Because it is not just about what is best for me and my needs, but what will benefit the greatest majority of all citizens regardless of their circumstances.

On Biden

  • he’s old but only 3 years older than Trump
  • perhaps he has a touch of dementia but he also has a stutter and let’s face it both of them must be physically exhausted
  • Biden has spent his entire career as an elected civil servant
  • Whilst lacking a bit in Charisma if he wins these 4 years are no Ferris wheel ride. America is exploding in every way possible.
  • Biden has superior advisors he actually listens to.
  • He has never been arrested or bankrupt
-Biden has never been investigated for corruption

Trump- personally bankrupt 7 times and was somehow able to bankrupt Harrah’s Casino which is a high roller casino in 24 months
Trump- Ivanka’s divorce deposition is online and public record under oath and not disputed by Trump that he beat her up on numerous occasions and raped her twice
Trump- on tape saying rich men can get any woman they want simply “by grabbing them by the pussy”
Trump- was a friend of Epstein
Trump - will not publicly release his tax returns as part of the electoral process
Trump - denies all but 9,000 Americans have died from Covid
Trump - advised Americans to inject themselves with bleach to ward off covid
Trump - broke constitutional law to derail his impeachment trial.
Trump- uses Twitter to rant like a mental patient
Trump- referred to white supremacists as a “bunch of ok guys”
Trump- fired the Head of the FBI James Comey from office. Comey, the man who was leading the investigation into the Trump administration’s links with Russia,
Trump- In NY where he is a mega landlord Trump Management Corporation was once sued by The Department of Justice for discrimination because they would not rent to people of a certain race.(Black)
Trump - has been sued 3,500 times by his business partners, contractors, clients, employees, and banks.
Trump- As of 2017, at least 24 women have accused Donald Trump of inappropriate sexual behavior in several incidents over the last 30 years.
Trump- wants to change constitutional law so he can have 3 terms in office.

So Biden who may be forgetful but is not corrupt and doesn’t seem to have multiple run ins with the US Department of Justice, May not be a maverick but is a safe pair of hands and actually take advice from his professional advisors (Trump’s Oval Office is 90% related to him!)
Biden’s wife Jill loves and supports him Trump’s wife won’t stand closer than 5 feet away from him and won’t let him touch her.

I would have preferred a different Democratic candidate but I will vote Biden with not one hesitation.

Goosefoot · 27/10/2020 14:37

The problem with talking about dogwhistles is you can claim they are anywhere you want. They are for the most part completely unverifiable. And a lot of the time they are used to dismiss an idea that someone doesn't want to bother to argue against.

I don't think Trump personally is a racist in the normal sense of the world, I don't think he believes other people are real, and so his views reflect how he perceives someone in relation to his own inflated view of himself in a given moment. Which in terms of a president is probably far worse than a lot of leaders who do have questionable views on race though for some reason people think that is letting them him the hook.

Has his presidency emboldened racists and nationalists? Maybe, but I would say that's mostly superficial. The resurgence of race essentialism is down to other things besides Trump. It represents a more basic change in the widely accepted narrative around race. Trumps relationship to that isn't causative and it's not even all that clear he supports that narrative with policy or personally, or has any awareness of it at all. It would be there even if Hilary had been elected instead.

Gothamgirl1970 · 27/10/2020 14:40

@FOJN did you ever think there are facts to support the hate?

Gothamgirl1970 · 27/10/2020 14:42

@FOJN the US government sued him for refusing to rent apartments to financially qualified Black Americans. Do you not think that’s racism ?

FOJN · 27/10/2020 14:50

did you ever think there are facts to support the hate?

No, I'm far too stupid for that to have crossed my mind!

I wonder if Trump supporters are fed up with being treated with that kind of contempt? Trump haters will go on such an angry rampage if he wins and still won't stop to think about the role they played in his election. Meanwhile those of us that are moderately left of centre will see how the behaviour of hard left radicals, supported by the mainstream media, does the recruiting for the far right and will hold our head in our hands.

FOJN · 27/10/2020 14:57

the US government sued him for refusing to rent apartments to financially qualified Black Americans. Do you not think that’s racism ?

I haven't said I don't think Trump is racist.

It's unnecessary to @ me, I'm on the thread.

FairFridaythe13th · 27/10/2020 15:01

Him or his dad? I'm always amazed at how he is the king of dragging out dirty laundry (true or otherwise) and yet with his family history, there's a goldmine sitting there!

user1471565182 · 27/10/2020 15:08

The quintessential dog whistle for me is 'cultural marxism'. Somebody like trump could easily spout it and the sort of useful idiots on here would say hes just talking about liberal dominated hollywood and even some crap about the frankfurt schools, The KKK, neo nazi groups and white supremacists would know hes talking to them directly about the jewish bolshevism theory that jews are controlling the world.

user1471565182 · 27/10/2020 15:11

Whats not to like? well his deliberate destalibilising or Syria with the Kurds and Iraq with the Iran atacks, then pulling out to leave others to deal with the shit?

The massive increase in drone attacks trump has authorised?

The huge troop increases in Iraq and afghanistan in the first part of his term?

user1471565182 · 27/10/2020 15:13

'July 2016: Saying the security situation in Afghanistan “remains precarious”, Obama announces that instead of dropping the US troop level to 5,500, he will keep it at about 8,400 through the end of his term in January 2017 and that his successor can determine the next move.

'August 2017: Trump warns against a “hasty withdrawal” from Afghanistan, saying: “Conditions on the ground, not arbitrary timetables, will guide our strategy from now on.” Weeks later, it is confirmed that additional troops will be deployed, eventually bringing the number to about 14,000.'

Goosefoot · 27/10/2020 15:34

@user1471565182

The quintessential dog whistle for me is 'cultural marxism'. Somebody like trump could easily spout it and the sort of useful idiots on here would say hes just talking about liberal dominated hollywood and even some crap about the frankfurt schools, The KKK, neo nazi groups and white supremacists would know hes talking to them directly about the jewish bolshevism theory that jews are controlling the world.
What?

Are you seriously saying that the idea of cultural marxism (which I think is a sloppy term really) is clearly and unequivocally a term that certain people know really means "means crackpot anti-Jewish conspiracy theories?"

It doesn't sound like much of a secret, if that's the case.

And how could you possibly know whether he meant it that way, or in the more mundane sense?

Gothamgirl1970 · 27/10/2020 16:11

@FOJN

did you ever think there are facts to support the hate?

No, I'm far too stupid for that to have crossed my mind!

I wonder if Trump supporters are fed up with being treated with that kind of contempt? Trump haters will go on such an angry rampage if he wins and still won't stop to think about the role they played in his election. Meanwhile those of us that are moderately left of centre will see how the behaviour of hard left radicals, supported by the mainstream media, does the recruiting for the far right and will hold our head in our hands.

Really? What role did I play in his election?

You are presumptive and clearly very angry and want to stir the pot. I don’t hate Trump, I’ve never met him. I believe he has exhibited criminal behaviour that make him unfit to hold any office. I certainly am by no means a far left radical. I’m moderate with an interest in social welfare for children.

No matter who wins I believe the vote will be contested before the Supreme Court.

It’s completely out of order for you to even speculate about mainstream media. There are moderate, conservative and leftist media outlets everywhere. Find one that echos your posture and stop bemoaning the fact that you can’t silence the opinions you do not agree with.

Are you even eligible to vote in an American Presidential election?

Sincerely I would really like to know what part of Trunp’s platform resonates so deeply with you that you see him as the correct candidate and moves you to try to stuff your often misinformed information down the throat of anyone here who prefers Biden.

You admitted Trump is a racist. Is that ok for the leader of a nation?

Gothamgirl1970 · 27/10/2020 16:18

FOJN and for your information my parents are Trump supporters. My great Grandfather was largest cities on the East Coast in office in 1940. 5,000 people attended his funeral and my grandfather was a Republican US Senator for my home state who died in office and I can assure you there was never a nanosecond of contempt in me for their opinions that I personally was in opposition to. There was a level of respect and reverence that is immeasurable for the service they gave to their constituents which I can assure you was not a 8-5 Monday- Friday commitment

MintyMabel · 27/10/2020 17:11

Richard Spenser is probably the most prominent white nationalist, so kind of influential in that way.

If you could give one single example of Biden dog whistling to him, and that trickling down to a large group of white nationalists who support him, then you would have a point. But, as you know, you don't. Biden has specifically denounced his support.

Hardly unreasonable to ask for clarification about exactly who you're being asked to condemn.
I never said it was. I was pointing out why Wallace mentioned them by name. Because Trump was doing his usual faux innocence about who he needs to be condemning. Then he didn't do it.

Or maybe you’re just wrong on this one
Show me the evidence. Show me the pictures flooding SM which show large numbers of black people attending white supremacy rallies, protests, meetings, any of them.

The shooting of Joseph Rosenbaum isn't clearly visible but it the other two shootings it's very obvious Kyle Rittenhouse was defending himself.
Aye - sure it is. Because self defence applies after you have shot someone and people are trying to take your gun away.

The whole thing seems pretty implausible to me
Now there is a surprise. Of course, you don't want to accept that a President who banned muslims, built "a wall", refuses to let anyone seek asylum in the US, undid anti segregation housing laws, gutted Lifeline, called immigrants murderers and rapists....(too many more to mention) is in any way racist. And all because, what? He has a few black friends?

So which is it? Has the US stock market been riding an unstoppable Obama wave for the last four years or has it been reacting to economic conditions under Trump?
Markets don't react to economic conditions. Economic conditions are a result of the market. They react to announcements and major events. The market dipped sharply when tariffs were announced. Probably because the market actually understood what they were. As I said in an earlier comment, unless something seriously fucks up, the market will generally continue on an upward trend.

FOJN · 27/10/2020 17:13

Gothamgirl1970
Not angry in the slightest.

It’s completely out of order for you to even speculate about mainstream media. There are moderate, conservative and leftist media outlets everywhere. Find one that echos your posture and stop bemoaning the fact that you can’t silence the opinions you do not agree with.

Erm can you tell me why I'm not permitted to speculate about the mainstream media? Are opinions not allowed now? Your suggestion that I'm "out of order" in doing so is bizarre. My only posture is one of frustration with media bias which is pretty heavily weighted against Trump. I say that as an impartial observer from the other side of the pond. I am not politically aligned with Conservatives so have no agenda in expressing that opinion.

What exactly did I say which would indicate I would like to silence alternative views? I'm all for plurality, even those views I disagree with, as I previously stated. I don't restrict my news consumption to outlets I agree with, that would be taking comfort in an echo chamber, which I try to avoid.

Are you even eligible to vote in an American Presidential election?

No, I'm in the UK, as I made clear earlier in the thread. I do hope that doesn't also preclude me from having an opinion. The USA is pretty influential, globally, so what happens there is of interest to me but you'll no doubt be reassured I have no power to influence the election!

Sincerely I would really like to know what part of Trunp’s platform resonates so deeply with you that you see him as the correct candidate and moves you to try to stuff your often misinformed information down the throat of anyone here who prefers Biden.

Don't think I said Trump's platform resonates with me or that he's the correct candidate. FWIW I think both candidates are poor. I'm simply pointing out the media bias I have noted. You are free to skip posts which you feel are trying to stuff misinformation down your throat. I don't think I've been insulting about Biden or his supporters.

Your contempt was very clear in the question about had I ever stopped to think about why people hate Trump. If you think I've formed an opinion without research then how else would you describe your question. I see the same kind of contempt for differing views in UK politics and it only serves to alienate moderates. Trump is not likable and has said and done some pretty reprehensible things, so have many other politicians but they haven't been subject to the same level of hate.

With regard to the hard left I am referring to the extremists who are rioting, looting and burning. When they march and chant "no justice, no peace" it sounds like a threat of more violence and destruction so it's no surprise people might favour someone pushing a law and order agenda. I can't imagine anyone who saw images of protestors in the US chanting "death to America" felt very comfortable.

The evidence you offer for Trumps racism is flawed. The case you identified related to a company he was in charge of. The quoted examples of potential tenants experiencing racism do not directly involve DT but his father or other people in the organisation. The FBI file does not cite anyone who claims they received direct orders from DT not to let to black tenants. The government did not win the case and Trump counter sued. I do not think this means he is not racist but I like cold hard facts and yours are not it and quite honestly there is more compelling evidence out there.

I'm getting the impression you're taking my audacity to have and express an opinion very personally so I won't be engaging further.

Gothamgirl1970 · 27/10/2020 17:31

FOJN

Again your misinformation re the apartment letting is due to the fact that Trump Sr was in midst litigation with the DOJ. DT had a controlling stake in the company if you check the incorporation document.

I’m also bowing out because I don’t deal with toxic assaulting people anymore. Enjoy your opinions whatever they may be

boobot1 · 27/10/2020 17:32

America is screwed no matter who wins

Parker231 · 27/10/2020 17:33

Unfortunately we’re all screwed if Trump wins regardless of which country you live in.

MerchantOfVenom · 27/10/2020 17:42

Absolute LOL at the idea that Biden is a ‘socialist’.

What is up with the (socialist) US education system - it seems to fail so many...

Oh, I’m not saying she is right on that. Just explaining her reasoning, such as it is.

She’s probably not voted for any Democrat since Clinton (even then .... I should ask her about that one)

While you’re asking your Mum questions - why don’t you ask her what ‘socialism’ means?

I’m willing to bet she hasn’t the first clue.

But of course, being anti-socialist, she must be first in line to defund the police. And education. And... etc, etc...