John Leslie - AIBU to agree that men accused of sexual assault should have anonymity until charged?

[FauxFurCoatAndBigKnickers]

Having 3 sons myself (and a daughter), cases like this are really worrying as people will always think ‘there’s no smoke without fire’.

I don’t understand why John Leslie didn’t sue the arse off that jibbering imbecile Wright or why Jonsson started the witch hunt then refused to speak out. That was what started off all the rest of the allegations and if, as it seems, he is entirely innocent, it is a disgusting travesty and has totally ruined his life.

Non DM link below:
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/john-leslie-trial-not-guilty-a4572176.html%3famp

@june2007

Being wrongly accused of something is devastating. Not being believed and seeing people who destroyed your live walk free is devastating. It,s not an either/or.

No, but in this case, one of those things happens way, way, way more often than the other.

Yes agreed.

This is what I could find about the hands down woman's trousers in 2017. I think she had a tutu on as she was on her hen night. I think that's why there's confusion about whether it was hands up a skirt, up a dress or hands down a top. I don't think it's 4 separate sexual assaults.

www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/news/16298687.john-leslie-trial-accused-putting-hand-womans-trousers-touching-bottom/
www.heraldscotland.com/news/16309332.sexual-assault-case-john-leslie-not-proven/

Men are more likely to be a victim of rape (approximately 12,000 a year) than to be falsely accused of committing rape (approximately 353 a year).

Interestingly, people who use NAMALT often go on to shoot down women’s experience. It didn’t happen to them (so they say) so it can’t have happened to you, you’re exaggerating. Because, you see, NAMALT - even though all men, all of them, every single one of them, has a responsibility to stop sexual harassment of women

That’s quite a leap.
NAMALT - it’s a fact!
I can honestly say I studied a very make dominated subject at university (well it was at the time), worked in a very make dominated environment at one point, count as many men as friends as I do women, brought up sons, have brothers, and I’ve never heard any of my wide circle laugh about rape, decry victims or defend sexual abusers in any form. The men I associate with are decent, moral human beings.

The sexual abusers, rapists and apologists for such people are those I read about in the press. That doesn’t make me want to assume all men are the problem.

Men and women have both got responsibility for their own behaviour and for calling out inappropriate behaviour when they see or hear it.

YABU people who are charged should be named so others can come forward.
Separately I have had the displeasure of meeting John Leslie when he was drunk at a wedding and tried to snog every single woman on their way to the bar.

For balance, I worked in a very male dominated industry for years and the attitude to women was disgusting. Just because it's not your experience doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

I have no idea about JL. But I would like to add that men are innocently accused of rape and you have no ideas of the numbers to be honest. How can you possibly find those stats. There aren’t any. And men get a shocking raw deal. I’m speaking from experience of a family member and it’s been hell. Sheer hell. You have no idea of the upset and worry. The allegation was absolute fiction. A laugh. He is innocent. And yet it stays on him as a police record forever. How is that fair? What about innocent until proved guilty. Out the window where a rape charge is alleged. Didn’t go to court and yet he will never lose that label. It’s destroyed his life.

I haven't read the full thread but was he cleared of Ulrika's rape? If it was all a misunderstanding that he was named, then why didn't she say something? This is all so strange. And why is she today posting naked pics of herself on social media in response to Leslie's hearing?
Is she just a very odd and manipulative woman or did it happen and she's doing some sort of protest now that he has been cleared?

But I would like to add that men are innocently accused of rape and you have no ideas of the numbers to be honest. How can you possibly find those stats. There aren’t any

The stats are freely available in reports published by the Crown Prosecution Service. They are very open about it being difficult to work out the exact figures because of various factors but, based on the information they do have, approximately 0.62% of rape allegations are false.

Ask those who stood by with Jimmy Saville for years before his death
What always astounds me about Saville is that he seemed to be untouchable and any one who raised questions was effectively banned from the BBC, for example John Lyddon (banned after 1978 interview questioning Saville)

Gan,

There is no statistic to show that only 0.62% allegations are false. It is unknowable. Your figure refers to actual prosecutions for false allegations, a completely different thing.

The home office believes, according to its research, that about 3% are false and US research believes 2-10% are false.

This still means 97% are true, but that is a lot less than you are implying.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.theweek.co.uk/fact-check/97362/fact-check-the-truth-about-false-rape-claims%3famp

Taken from a popular pick up artist forum;

“If a bitch pretends she doesn’t want to fuck you, she does. All women do, it’s all they are made for. Just holes for us to use. Just rape her. The chances of you doing time for it are less than 1 percent. Take what you are entitled to”

I’d urge every one of you to read or listen on audible (i found it easier to pause when I needed a break from the trauma of it) Laura Bates’s book, ‘Men Who Hate Women’. I believe it is so important for all women and parents to understand the scale of the issue, to look at the back lash from the ‘Me Too’ movement and feminism and to fully understand who walks among us in society. Particularly the UK, America, Canada and Australia.

Taken from a popular pick up artist forum
Absolutely disgusting attitude in this forum

Absolutely disgusting attitude in this forum

Perhaps I should have said, ‘quoted in a book, that quoted at popular pick up artist forum or PUA’ which is a sickening growing trend. They exist and are growing exponentially with millions of books from the leaders of these groups growing. It’s not an ‘attitude’ it’s a nasty reality that needs addressing.

Fake accusations are an absolutely tiny proportion. Meanwhile successful prosecutions are disgracefully low. The vast majority of rapists go unpunished. We should be concentrating on this and not protecting men like JL who have had numerous allegations made against them by numerous women over the years. So no they should not get anonymity. They don't for any other crime.

You are being very unreasonable.

I was raped. Aged 16 by a friend. I was drunk. I had stayed out all night at another friends house. I didn't report it because I knew they would say that I had lied to cover for the fact that I stayed out all night to avoid getting into trouble. I knew I wouldn't be believed. He would say I consented and that I would be called a liar. It hurt, physically, emotionally. When I told some of my friends later they went to him to make sure he was ok. I also couldn't face the physical examination after the trauma I had been through. So there is another man who got away with rape. Such was my knowledge of the misogyny of the criminal justice system aged 16.

Will,

If you read the OP, it is saying that they should be granted anonymity until they are charged, not after, something that is the case for all crimes.

The OP is talking about openly gossiping about allegations about the rich and famous, such as IJ’s book (and the talk afterwards) which was cited.

Jesus the man's a right dodgy fucker, they'll get him one day

@RUOKHon

YABU. The number of rapes being reported to police is growing but the number of prosecutions is falling and a record low. Police are using rape victims' mobile phone history against. That is what your AIBU should be

I cannot understand this argument. If there is evidence on the phone then it's entirely right it should be taken into account. We have something called due process - for the time being, at least

Because anything on a phone is completely irrelevant to the issue of consent. You can be as up for it as it’s possible to be, sending nudes and sexting and all sorts. But if you get in his bedroom and suddenly he wants to do something to you that you don’t want him to do - you can withdraw consent there and then. And if he ignores it, he’s a rapist. Whatever you texted to him half an hour earlier means fuck all.

It doesn't mean fuck all in every case though does it? Every single case is different. If a victim tells the police she's never even met the man before but there's texts arranging to meet him it will of course be relevant. Also texts from AFTER the alleged rape can be very telling. I've sadly had cases where the women has text her mate with all the details after telling police a completely different version of events. It's of course only fair that ALL the evidence is available for a jury to decide on. I used to think "no one would lie" but unfortunately some do. Thankfully it's very rare and my instinct would always believe the victim, but that doesn't mean ignoring evidence

@OlympicProcrastinator
Sorry I wasn't clear, I meant the pick-up forum was disgusting not MN

@Missandra

I have a better solution. Tell men to stop raping and sexually assaulting women.

Why has no one thought of this before?!

All those years wasted when if we'd only have just told them it was wrong.

My thoughts are the fact Ulrika didn’t come out and say it wasn’t him is pretty much the same as stating it was. I think if it wasn’t him she’d have said so immediately, I just don’t think she’d have hung the wrong man out to dry. The fact she didn’t wish to go to a trial is not uncommon sadly.

What I find surprising is so many allegations since. I don’t believe all th women were lying.

The whole thing with Abi titmass was just really sleazy as well which certainly didn’t help his public image.

So for me, ukrikkas silence speaks volumes.

why is she today posting naked pics of herself on social media in response to Leslie's hearing?

Because she says she wants to reclaim her body. If he was her attacker, I can understand it.