John Leslie - AIBU to agree that men accused of sexual assault should have anonymity until charged?

[FauxFurCoatAndBigKnickers]

Having 3 sons myself (and a daughter), cases like this are really worrying as people will always think ‘there’s no smoke without fire’.

I don’t understand why John Leslie didn’t sue the arse off that jibbering imbecile Wright or why Jonsson started the witch hunt then refused to speak out. That was what started off all the rest of the allegations and if, as it seems, he is entirely innocent, it is a disgusting travesty and has totally ruined his life.

Non DM link below:
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/john-leslie-trial-not-guilty-a4572176.html%3famp

Go and spend time in a male dominated space and discuss rape, or any kind of male on female violence

Been in lots of male dominated spaces, worked and lived in many. My experience is not yours, not even close.

How enthusiastic should a person be to indicate consent? How do you measure it? What does it look like?

Enthusiasm is nothing to do with performance or acting like a porn star

Enthusiastic consent is both people being engaged, active participants who actually want to be there. Its not difficult to understand.

So all boys are potential rapists then and must be TAUGHT not to rape. MN at its finest

Much better than teaching all girls that they need to cover their bodies or restrict their activities because someone might look at them and think they’re up for it, or that they must be wanting sex while walking wantonly down a poorly lit street. Victim blaming a rape culture is endemic, but suggest we teach our men to respect a woman’s bodily autonomy - heaven forfend!

@Jellycatspyjamas - this, absolutely.

Go and spend time in a male dominated space and discuss rape, or any kind of male on female violence

I'm a feller. At the risk of being seen to invoke NAMALT, it depends what male-dominated space you're talking about. In some, rape jokes etc. are commonplace. Other men would think those groups are neanderthal arseholes. But that's not to say that no-one within them wasn't a bit rapey when no-one was looking.

In my lived experience, the level of 'bantz' has got worse in the last couple of decades (I grew up in a very 'ordinary' working class laddish environment and I honestly don't think I ever heard a rape joke). It's a problem.

All defendents, male and female, are named at the point they are charged. Why make an exception for men accused of a crime that is notoriously under-reported, under-prosecuted and most definitely under-convicted?

thedancingbear - why has it got worse?

@Whatafustercluck - excellent point.

How enthusiastic should a person be to indicate consent? How do you measure it? What does it look like?

If you have to ask what enthusiastic consent looks like you shouldn’t be instigating sex with anyone.

This is a topic that arose in a recent legal review in Ireland. A summary, and the full report, is here irishlegal.com/article/o-malley-review-backs-anonymity-for-more-defendants-and-greater-support-for-complainants .. the full report is also linked from there and it is worthwhile to read chapter 4.

Obviously there are pros/cons. However, one significant impact will be much less additional information (additional witnesses, supporting material, etc.) appearing to either support a prosecution case, as a result of the case being made public. The reality is that many sex crimes are not a once off, there are patterns of behaviour that escalate, that are repeated in different areas, etc.

Overall the change is very good for those accused of rape (statistically most of those are rapists), and not good for victims.

Maireas - I'd be reduced to blind guesswork, I'm afraid, though I suspect a lot of problems around how we treat each other nowadays can be traced back to the the Thatcher government and the people who voted for it.

I'm reluctant to pin societal changes on cultural factors, the media etc. as I tend to think they are shaped by attitudes rather than the reverse, but who knows really.

Indeed - a question with no obvious answers. I definitely think society has become more polarised and more hostile in the last few years.

What does NAMALT stand for?

Does anyone remember the 'fun' bet in the late eighties/early nineties
'I bet you 50p I can make your tits wobble without touching them.'
Which ends with the female having her breasts roughly manhandled and the male throwing 50p at the woman and saying
'Best 50p I've ever spent'
Said in front of a braying pack of their friends.

Drunken sports club members at the University Student bars in the mid nineties - playing 'Tit Tennis' - scoring points for how many times they can pretend or blatantly touch women's breasts.

NUS 2010 report - 68% of female students have been/say they have been (because who believes them anyway) sexually harassed at University. I can't remember exactly the details but I think the figure was 68.

What does NAMALT stand for?

Not All Men Are Like That. We must qualify ourselves and be appeasing before we can talk about sexual violence.

Do any of his female supporting friends like AT ever mention the sleaziness because I'm fairly sure that facet of JL personality is undeniable.

I know it was the time of 'lad Culture' and more acceptable to behave like that in the past but weren't they exposed to his outrageous behaviour? Did they just accept it or was he more respectful with them?

What does NAMALT stand for?

Not All Men Are Like That.
Because they are not. Any generalisations about men are unfair, insulting and dangerous, just as generalisations about women are.

Never heard of that 'fun bet' at university. They sound like puerile morons.
There are clearly different life experiences.

@StoneofDestiny

Never heard of that 'fun bet' at university. They sound like puerile morons. There are clearly different life experiences.

Interestingly, people who use NAMALT often go on to shoot down women’s experience. It didn’t happen to them (so they say) so it can’t have happened to you, you’re exaggerating. Because, you see, NAMALT - even though all men, all of them, every single one of them, has a responsibility to stop sexual harassment of women.

Yep, YABVU!

I don’t like reading about people defending John Leslie. I remember I was dating a guy years ago who told me a disturbing story about John Leslie being a sexual predator. I dismissed him because I was a naive teenager, it was years before the UJ story came out and he was famously presenting lots of tv shows at the time. Oh, but he seems like such a nice guy I foolishly said. If you think John Leslie is entirely innocent despite multiple women making similar claims separately over the years then you just don’t want to accept the truth.

I love how people worry more about the tiny percentage of men who are falsely accused of rape, than the vast majority of rapists who never face justice.

I don’t understand why John Leslie didn’t sue the arse off that jibbering imbecile Wright
Because they were friends, they shared the same agent and MW apologised straight after the break on The Wright Stuff.

or why Jonsson started the witch hunt then refused to speak out.
I think it was the media who actually started the witch hunt. However, if it wasn't JL who raped Ulrika, then I don't understand why she didn't just say so. She regretted admitting it was a TV presenter so maybe thought that if she said it wasn't JL then the media might continue to speculate until they did discover who it was.

I love how people worry more about the tiny percentage of men who are falsely accused of rape, than the vast majority of rapists who never face justice

Won’t somebody think of the poor men!

Being wrongly accused of something is devastating. Not being believed and seeing people who destroyed your live walk free is devastating. It,s not an either/or.