To not consider surrogacy for SIL when I would for my sister?

[nervousnelly8]

DH's sister has longstanding fertility problems. She has been told surrogacy would be her best option. DH and I were discussing today whether I would consider acting as a surrogate in future (she hasn't asked me directly but has raised it with DH).

I came down pretty firmly on the no side. I'm currently very pregnant with DC2 and I do not enjoy pregnancy. I had bad birth injuries with DC1 and am very apprehensive about going through it again, but know it will be worth it if we get a healthy baby out at the end.

Selfishly, I just don't feel willing to but my body through a pregnancy/birth for SIL, with all the risks that it entails. We're not sure yet if we would like more children after DC2, so that plays a part too.

DH asked if I would be willing to do it for anyone else. And the honest answer was that I would do it for my own sister. I would do anything for my sister. DH understood but was visibly upset, and I now feel like a selfish cow. AIBU?

Do people not understand that looking 'visibly upset' isn't always under our control? OP's DH is being painted as a monster here. There's absolutely nothing that the OP told us that implies that he was emotionally blackmailing her by deliberately looking upset. And 'visibly upset' could have been very subtle with him not even being aware that he appeared so. I know I've thought I was holding things together, only to have someone see right through it.

There is SO much anger on this thread, which I see no real reason for. He accepted everything OP said, and neither asked her directly to do it, or to persuade her in any way.

Why would it visibly upset him that his wife didn't want to be an incubator when he was a witness to her first birth difficulties and she is due to go through that again shortly?

Why would he ask the follow on question as to whether she would ever consider it for anyone, other than to imply that she was actively denying his sister some right to use her body?

How do you navigate in society with such a lack of understanding of manipulation techniques.

@saraclara

Do people not understand that looking 'visibly upset' isn't always under our control? OP's DH is being painted as a monster here. There's absolutely nothing that the OP told us that implies that he was emotionally blackmailing her by deliberately looking upset. And 'visibly upset' could have been very subtle with him not even being aware that he appeared so. I know I've thought I was holding things together, only to have someone see right through it.

There is SO much anger on this thread, which I see no real reason for. He accepted everything OP said, and neither asked her directly to do it, or to persuade her in any way.

Apart from asking her about being a surrogate for his sister when he knows that his wife already had birth injuries and is currently pregnant (which she is not enjoying) and worried about this birth.

Yes apart from starting an entire conversation which completely disregards her feelings and experience of pregnancy and childbirth which he should know and think about before opening his trap.

Yes obviously there's no emotional blackmail in starting a completely inappropriate, insensitive and utterly dickish conversation in which he can't comprehend why him using his wife's relationship with her sister as a tool to guilt her is fucking reprenhensible.

Yes apart from that bit, its absoluetely fine.

‘Do people not understand that looking 'visibly upset' isn't always under our control? OP's DH is being painted as a monster here. There's absolutely nothing that the OP told us that implies that he was emotionally blackmailing her by deliberately looking upset. And 'visibly upset' could have been very subtle with him not even being aware that he appeared so. I know I've thought I was holding things together, only to have someone see right through it.

There is SO much anger on this thread, which I see no real reason for. He accepted everything OP said, and neither asked her directly to do it, or to persuade her in any way.’

This. The anger is over the top.

Try putting yourself in other shoes.

And yet there are likely many women who feel the same as Backbeat as there are others who feel the same as you. Have you considered that? Do those who do and feel the same as her not count as others?

@phoenixrosehere

Try putting yourself in other shoes.

And yet there are likely many women who feel the same as Backbeat as there are others who feel the same as you. Have you considered that? Do those who do and feel the same as her not count as others?

They aren't vulnerable according to them themselves!!!

Are you deliberately missing the point that its not about women who can advocate for themselves and that safeguarding requires that we dont pander to them but those who do need protection?

This isnt rocket science but the whataboutery going on suggests it is.

Ethics are not about people who can express themselves. They are about those who find it difficult to or are completely unable to assert their rights.

But yes lets race to the bottom because the affluent and privileged must assert their individualism and must get their way.

To hell with anyone else, it was their fault for not speaking up when they were being exploited because of poverty or emotional blackmail.

@saraclara

“Do people not understand that looking 'visibly upset' isn't always under our control? “

I would have thought that the fact his wife’s Childbirth related injuries plus being fairly advanced in her second pregnancy ought to have knocked any idea of surrogacy for his fucking sister into a cocked hat for most men.
Shame being totally devoid of any sensitivity or emotional intelligence caused him to be upset. Not.

I find it very telling how some posters seem incapable of looking beyond an individualistic stance on this thread.

Telling, that is, about the kind of society in which we have all been born and brought up.

He looked visibly upset after asking her baited question of would she do it for anyone else. She was set up. He can sod off. There was no need for that follow up question.

Surrogacy is the ultimate act of an individualistic society so it's unsurprising you see that stance on this thread.

OP you weren't tactless. Your DH was vaguely manipulative. He hoped you'd admit a double standard and then feel uncomfortable. I'd be very unhappy with the entire situation.

@DorisLessingsLesson

Surrogacy is the ultimate act of an individualistic society so it's unsurprising you see that stance on this thread.

OP you weren't tactless. Your DH was vaguely manipulative. He hoped you'd admit a double standard and then feel uncomfortable. I'd be very unhappy with the entire situation.

This is spot on.

What the heck. I wouldn't do it for anyone. Especjally not for SIL. However, I don't have any siblings, so I might have felt different if I had a sister.

And no. i don't understand your DH. This is not about spending Christmas at SIL.

I hope he has been visibly upset at the injuries you incurred delivering him a child, and emotional with appreciation that you are prepared to do it again,...... and that he has visibly moved himself to be a fantastic support to you through everything you have been through?
🙄

I have read the entire thread, people make some really good points. Reading more around the subject, my opinion has changed on surrogacy.

I’m not entirely sure anyone could ever say, 100% that they would be a surrogate for their DS or DSIL or a stranger etc. Until you are in that situation, you simply won’t know. There are just so many questions involved - what if the baby had a disability and the commissioning parents wanted to abort but you didn’t, what if you developed a life threatening condition and you wanted to abort to obtain treatment but the commissioning parents didn’t want this. What about their different parenting styles, how involved would you be. Without knowing the answers to these questions, how can you possibly know for sure you would definitely carry for another person? Hypothetical questions are great, until you are faced with reality and real life consequences - you can never be totally sure you would do anything.

The OP stated that she knew her DH would carry a child for his DS if he could. Again, very easy to say when this simply isn’t a possibility. Would DH risk his life, birth injuries, etc.

As for the general question of whether surrogacy should be allowed, as a society we restrict our choices in general regularly to protect the vulnerable (current Covid restrictions seem a perfect example) We restrict people’s freedoms to protect the minority from the effects of Covid 19. I believe that surrogacy should be banned to protect the vulnerable and emotionally fragile. Just because it works for some, doesn’t mean it works for all.

And none of this takes into consideration the long term lasting effects on a newborn baby from being removed from its birth mother hours after birth. Which must be horrific and traumatic. To create a baby, knowing full well, this will be the consequence, should not be allowed in a civilised society

@saraclara

Do people not understand that looking 'visibly upset' isn't always under our control? OP's DH is being painted as a monster here. There's absolutely nothing that the OP told us that implies that he was emotionally blackmailing her by deliberately looking upset. And 'visibly upset' could have been very subtle with him not even being aware that he appeared so. I know I've thought I was holding things together, only to have someone see right through it.

There is SO much anger on this thread, which I see no real reason for. He accepted everything OP said, and neither asked her directly to do it, or to persuade her in any way.

He could have avoided that by not raising the issue in the first place. But even if you think it was ok to discuss surrogacy in the first place, there was no excuse whatsoever for the utterly inappropriate question about whether OP would do it for someone else. Anger is a perfectly appropriate response to that. It's of note that the handful of people who've defended the DH here have left that part out.

@RedToothBrush

Easy to say when you have children.

Bullshit.

I think its easy to discuss the exploitation and emotional blackmail of women and how surrogacy is the commodification of babies regardless of whether you have your own or not.

Someone without a child might wish to speak about ethics and morality for their own selfish ends but it doesn't change those ethics and morality.

In fact anyone considering surrogacy needs to understand these issues more than anyone else because if they then decide to have a baby through surrogacy they are going to have to live with those issues possibly playing out in some way.

I certainly would think less of someone knowing they are happy to minimise the abuse of women just so they could get what they want.

I do not think anyone childless should be given an easy ride over this. Not when there is potential for the mother to die in the process of having a baby, particularly if that mother already has dependent children of her own who already need their mother. They should always come before the wants of an infertile couple.

Speaking as a childless, infertile woman, I couldn’t agree with this more.

I agree too.

Disappointment comes from expectations. He is visibly upset because of his expectations. If he didn't expect her to do it, he wouldn't be disappointed.

Disappointment comes from expectations. He is visibly upset because of his expectations. If he didn't expect her to do it, he wouldn't be disappointed.

This is such simplistic logic. You’re trying to condense complicated emotions into a few easy sentences.

His sister being in such a tough situation is upsetting. Nothing the op has said has made it sound like he expected her to just say yes. The op has even said “DH didn't come to me and say "SIL wants you to be a surrogate" - it was part of a conversation about how he is finding it hard to see his sister struggling.”

@PurpleDaisies

Disappointment comes from expectations. He is visibly upset because of his expectations. If he didn't expect her to do it, he wouldn't be disappointed.

This is such simplistic logic. You’re trying to condense complicated emotions into a few easy sentences.

His sister being in such a tough situation is upsetting. Nothing the op has said has made it sound like he expected her to just say yes. The op has even said “DH didn't come to me and say "SIL wants you to be a surrogate" - it was part of a conversation about how he is finding it hard to see his sister struggling.”

People have long lost interest in what the OP actually said. The DH has been branded a monster, and everyone and her dog have decided that he was demanding that OP acted as a surrogate.

They also know exactly what the conversation that he and his sister had was like, and that he deliberately looked sad to guilt OP when she said no (ignoring the fact that the OP was about his reaction to OP's comment about her own sister, NOT the surrogacy).

This is a really bizarre thread, where posters have decided that their version of the conversations, and not the OP's, is the truth.

I think I could possibly be a surrogate for my sister or my very best friend. I couldn't do it for anyone else.

It's your choice who, if anyone, you would offer to do it for

No YANBU I'd do it for my sister but not any of my SILs

Disappointment comes from expectations. He is visibly upset because of his expectations.
That’s ridiculous. My grandpa died this year. I didn’t expect him to live forever, I didn’t even expect him to live through this year. I was most visibly upset however. I would also be upset knowing one of my siblings were struggling with something like this.