To not consider surrogacy for SIL when I would for my sister?

[nervousnelly8]

DH's sister has longstanding fertility problems. She has been told surrogacy would be her best option. DH and I were discussing today whether I would consider acting as a surrogate in future (she hasn't asked me directly but has raised it with DH).

I came down pretty firmly on the no side. I'm currently very pregnant with DC2 and I do not enjoy pregnancy. I had bad birth injuries with DC1 and am very apprehensive about going through it again, but know it will be worth it if we get a healthy baby out at the end.

Selfishly, I just don't feel willing to but my body through a pregnancy/birth for SIL, with all the risks that it entails. We're not sure yet if we would like more children after DC2, so that plays a part too.

DH asked if I would be willing to do it for anyone else. And the honest answer was that I would do it for my own sister. I would do anything for my sister. DH understood but was visibly upset, and I now feel like a selfish cow. AIBU?

@BackBeatTheWordisOnTheStreet

This isn't a thread to discuss the intricate details about how surrogacy is regulated. This is a thread to discuss the OP who has the optionto become a surrogate but doesn't want to. I simply believe that OP should have the right to make that decisions herself. I don't believe she should feel in any way guilty for saying no. I don't believe she needs to justify why she said no. If she does choose tell us why she said no any reason is valid. If OP's sister asked her to become a surrogate and OP said yes that is her decision too. Not yours or mine. If OP was vulnerable or being exploited in some way either in the request from her SIL or a hypothetical request from her sister then the issues of exploitation would become relevant. They are not relevant here. You don't get to choose for OP that she should not become a surrogate just as her husband or sil or anyone else don't get to choose that she should become a surrogate.

You cant discuss this thread without pointing out how the husband is whether deliberately or unwittingly that he is emotionally manipulating and guilting his wife for even questioning why she might do it for her sister but not his. Its the point of this thread.

It highlights how impossible it is to legislate for a proceedure which puts such pressure on women, even those who do so 'willingly'. They do so because they feel emotionally they must forfil the idea that everyone who wants a family should be able to have one by any means. It plays into the idea that for a woman to be 'complete' or have 'purpose' she must be a mother and this can't be achieved by any other means.

It plays into the idea that fertility is this thing that we must pity those who dont have it and do everything possible to stop it.

Except this is an exceptionally privileged way of thinking. Women who dont have the means to pay for a surrogate (which includes expenses) dont have this option. For everyone else it remains the case that infertility is a part of life.

Making others feel guilty for your infertility is not on. Manipulating others by saying 'its ok for you, youve got children' is also not ok. In this world the idea that if we scream enough if we are privileged we can get it, is not ok. Not when other people are involved and surrogacy is something that involves at least three parties - of which the commissioning parent is the one with the greatest privilege and status in every instance.

When we safeguard we always should safeguard towards the most vulnerable in a dynamic. Thats not happening in safeguarding.

And it has to be noted here that the husband isnt putting his wife or his own children first here. Who his duty to protect should be owed to first. Instead its about pandering to his sister.

Nothing changes this. No amount of bleeding heart stories alters the power dynamics and how women being used by rich would be parents are increasingly having their rights reduced.

I’m heavily pregnant and would never go through this again for someone else. The sacrifice involved in pregnancy is absolutely massive and not something I fully understood before experiencing it myself. I doubt your husband fully comprehends what he’s asking of you.
I wouldn’t even do it for my sister and I would gift money, time etc to her without a second thought.

YANBU in any way, OP. I would not be a surrogate for anyone (including my own sister) but it is perfectly reasonable to feel like you would do something for your one person that you would not do for another.

I would agree it is a little bit tactless to mention that you would consider it for your sister and not his EXCEPT you only said this because he outright asked.

DH asked if I would be willing to do it for anyone else.

I mean, what sort of response was he expecting and why would he even ask that question?

Well I wouldn't give my SIL a bucket of water if she was on fire so I don't think you are being unreasonable 😂😂😂

I don't think it was unreasonable of your SIL to vaguely talk to your husband first. She was probably gently testing the waters.

YANBU YANBU YANBU!
Please don't in any way, shape or form feel guilty! Your DH should most definitely not have continued asking (after you'd said no) if there is anyone else you would do it for. To me it seems he was being disingenuous, he probably suspected you'd say your sister, why else ask?

As others have said, this is 100% about bodily autonomy. You are not an incubator, as poster above said, hypothetically it would blur so many boundaries anyway...

Your DH is very wrong in making you feel even slightly guilty for saying no, absolutely not on. If that was my DH, I'd be very upset at him and his lack of respect for my own body, my own opinion. It was borderline OK for him to broach it, but as soon as you said no, he should have respected your answer instead of continuing questioning you. Almost as if he suspected what you were going to say, and as though he'd already planned a counter argument.

Women should have control over their own bodies and you don't owe anyone an explanation or excuse whatsoever!

@RedToothBrush

That is a different issue. I think it was fine for her husband to test the waters by getting a feeling for how OP might view the situation. If she was open to the idea there might have been further discussions. It sounds like OP is firmly in the no camp so there should be no further discussions. I don't think asking OP whether she'd do it for her sister was the way her husband should have ended the discussion. I imagine he's hurting watching his sister go through this anguish but shouldn't have projected that onto OP. That doesn't mean that in general it's unreasonable to see how someone feels about surrogacy (unless the person in question is vulnerable in some way which might make them incapable of making the decision in an unbiased way).

For me this is similar to other medical matters. I would be willing to give a kidney to a family member or maybe even a stranger. I wouldn't want to sell my kidney and I wouldn't want to be pressured to give it to someone. I don't believe anyone should be pressured to give away their kidney. I do think they should have bodily autonomy.

No one should ever feel they should go through pregnancy and birth and give away the child unless they want to

I am answering as someone who has been the person needing a surrogate. Surrogacy is divisive and people come at it from a lot of heart break, or from a gay couple knowing they can’t conceive on their own. And you’ll get a lot of “why don’t yo just adopt” which no one ever says to a couple who want to experience pregnancy and the new born stage of their children themselves. Just as adoption is right for some people surrogacy is for others. I disagree with surrogacy farms in India etc and a lot in America is money driven.

I think the DH wasn’t directly asking, but the SIL was gently scoping. But surrogacy isn’t something you ask to do. Our friends/family were aware we were looking into surrogacy. I didn’t ask anyone to be a surrogate. If they wanted to consider it they would have asked me/approached me, but I wouldn’t have even considered ask someone or their husband in a round about way to scope them out.

Being a surrogate you have to enjoy being pregnant and not have any pregnancy/birth complications that would risk your own health. It’s a marmite thing, you either love it or hate it.

And OP your DH was wrong for making you feel bad for saying yo would do it for your sister. I’ve had close friends say they think they would consider it for a sister but nothing else. Which is completely understandable, that you would risk your health if it’s something you don’t enjoy for a sibling you are closer to than a friend, that’s normal! Like someone said about the kidney thing.

absolute rubbish. Posting ridiculous statements like that without any context is just demonstarting your unbelievable bias. Of course no one respects such a silly belief system

Which belief system is that? The sheer numbers of poorer and disadvantaged women exploited both in the sex industry and surrogacy doesn't require "belief".

Those fluffy adverts and articles promoting surrogacy don't show any of it. Typically you see two smiling, affluent, white men, next to a white smooth skinned belly - rarely even a face on the surrogate. Adverts targeting heterosexual couples tend to show the adopting couple happily holding a health baby.

Yes I'm biased. I'm biased in favour of women's bodily autonomy whatever their race, nationality or social class.

Making others feel guilty for your infertility is not on. Manipulating others by saying 'its ok for you, youve got children' is also not ok. In this world the idea that if we scream enough if we are privileged we can get it, is not ok. Not when other people are involved and surrogacy is something that involves at least three parties - of which the commissioning parent is the one with the greatest privilege and status in every instance.

@RedToothBrush is bang on the money when it comes to issues of safeguarding (not least personal entitlement). The ethical minefield surrounding the whole practice of surrogacy is huge. The issue of free will and the moral quagmire surrounding it: also huge. The issues relating to of legal parentage, emotional entanglement and the possibility for even more than usually messed-up family dynamics are potentially enormous when such a practice takes place within one family (if this is even legal, which is questionable so on that basis the whole scenario is moot). As to the costs to the child, not least the poor vessel who would be carrying that child, it's interesting that apparently neither the DH nor his sister saw fit to consider that.

The PP quoted above is right. The sense of entitlement is overwhelming. As to the previous objection 'you don't get to decide what I do with my own body', as far as UK law is concerned when the rights of the child are in question those rights always take precedence. As they should. The rights of women who are vulnerable and at risk of being emotionally or financially exploited are the second most important question. When it comes to surrogacy the approach can only ever be utilitarian. Individualism is largely irrelevant here when it comes to what's potentially at stake for the majority.

Returning to the quoted block of text above. Making others feel guilty for your infertility is not on. Discussing 'using' someone else's body to fill the gap of that infertility, without even discussing it with them, is not on. Women's bodies are not commodities for the needs of others: we have enough problems with society making that assumption in any case.

I struggled for 10 years to have our one and only DC. It would never have occurred to me even to raise this suggestion with anyone, let alone the partner of another female member of my family. I did discuss my issues with my brother, as we are close, but asking his DW to carry for me, without her even present? Not an earthly. The suggestion that this is in any way okay shows a callous disregard for the OP. She has exercised her own right to say 'no' only to face continual probing to the tune that she now feels like 'a selfish cow' - as her DP no doubt intended she should feel. A father-to-be placing a burden of stress on the mother of his unborn child, when pregnancy leaves women physically and emotionally vulnerable to start with and stress is known to be bad for the unborn baby. Let that one sink in for a minute.

'Appease others at all costs' does not necessarily have to be the motto for anyone who happens to have been born female.

YANBU. Your body your choice.

[quote BackBeatTheWordisOnTheStreet]@RedToothBrush

That is a different issue. I think it was fine for her husband to test the waters by getting a feeling for how OP might view the situation. If she was open to the idea there might have been further discussions. It sounds like OP is firmly in the no camp so there should be no further discussions. I don't think asking OP whether she'd do it for her sister was the way her husband should have ended the discussion. I imagine he's hurting watching his sister go through this anguish but shouldn't have projected that onto OP. That doesn't mean that in general it's unreasonable to see how someone feels about surrogacy (unless the person in question is vulnerable in some way which might make them incapable of making the decision in an unbiased way).[/quote]
No its not a different issue.

If the op were to decide to go ahead it wpuld be classed as altruistic surrogacy.

The dynamics of it are riddled with guilt tripping and emotional abuse even in every case where relatives are involved. There are no exceptions to this.

@BackBeatTheWordisOnTheStreet

For me this is similar to other medical matters. I would be willing to give a kidney to a family member or maybe even a stranger. I wouldn't want to sell my kidney and I wouldn't want to be pressured to give it to someone. I don't believe anyone should be pressured to give away their kidney. I do think they should have bodily autonomy.

You think carrying a baby giving birth to it then handing it over it like any other medical matter?

That is astonishing

@C8H10N4O2 If you think that all surrogacy is wrong you need to come up with a better argument and more proof than some surrogacy is wrong. I don't believe it's right that people should be harvested for organs or that people should sell their organs due to financial hardship. That doesn't mean I don't believe in organ donation in general. If you want to make a link between a type of surrogacy which is clearly wrong and a situation in which someone activelyand freely chooses to become a surrogate then you need to provide evidence for that. If you have no evidence that you don't have an argument.

@SunShinesStill

Being a surrogate you have to enjoy being pregnant and not have any pregnancy/birth complications that would risk your own health. It’s a marmite thing, you either love it or hate it.

I loved being pregnant
I had no birth complications

There is still no way I would ever be a surrogate

I'm quite angry on your behalf. You're not a walking incubator ffs!!

@shesgonebatshitagain that’s completely normal, and I would never expect anyone to consider it if they didn’t want to do it. I meant enjoying being pregnancy and then having had no complications was a bare minimum, to then have the desire to want to do it on top. So the fact that the OP has had complications the SIL/DH shouldn’t have even brung it up.

That doesn't mean I don't believe in organ donation in general. If you want to make a link between a type of surrogacy which is clearly wrong and a situation in which someone activelyand freely chooses to become a surrogate then you need to provide evidence for that. If you have no evidence that you don't have an argument.

Organ donation and surrogacy are different issues.

Donating an organ is to save a life, an adult is doing it as a free choice (or should be doing it as a free choice), to save another human. Surrogacy is to intentionally create a life to give away. The baby has no say in it, they are grown and born specifically to be removed from their mother. I can't see how it's legal at all.

The problem is for consent to be valid it has to be free of 'undue pressure'.

Surrogacy using someone you know or even later build a relationship with can not be free of undue pressure. Which is why its so problematic.

Would you be a surrogate for a stranger you never meet is a very different set of considerations and you are likely to get a lot less women doing it. And a lot less prospective parents wanting it.

You have to ask why this is the case if thr guilt and control factor isnt present...

The dynamics of it are riddled with guilt tripping and emotional abuse even in every case where relatives are involved. There are no exceptions to this.

It's this kind of statement, with absolutely no evidence, that betrays your arrogance and biased thinking. There will always be emotions involved in surrogacy but to make a blanet statement that it always involves emotional coercion is just plain silly. Everything important you do in life involves high emotions and sometimes guilt. That doesn't mean you shouldn't be allowed to decide whether or not you do it. Organ donation, adoption, abortion, the decision to have a child, marriage. It always involves emotions and sometimes guilt. If I enjoy pregnancy and want to become a surrogate it is not for you to tell me I shouldn't and that I'm unaware of my emotions. You have absolute no knowledge which akes you more capable of making a decision about MY body than me.

@BackBeatTheWordisOnTheStreet

The dynamics of it are riddled with guilt tripping and emotional abuse even in every case where relatives are involved. There are no exceptions to this.

It's this kind of statement, with absolutely no evidence, that betrays your arrogance and biased thinking. There will always be emotions involved in surrogacy but to make a blanet statement that it always involves emotional coercion is just plain silly. Everything important you do in life involves high emotions and sometimes guilt. That doesn't mean you shouldn't be allowed to decide whether or not you do it. Organ donation, adoption, abortion, the decision to have a child, marriage. It always involves emotions and sometimes guilt. If I enjoy pregnancy and want to become a surrogate it is not for you to tell me I shouldn't and that I'm unaware of my emotions. You have absolute no knowledge which akes you more capable of making a decision about MY body than me.

See my last post.

Surrogacy is to intentionally create a life to give away. The baby has no say in it, they are grown and born specifically to be removed from their mother. I can't see how it's legal at all.

A baby has no say in being born in general. The same argument was made when IVF was new - what about the poor baby learning it was conceived in a test tube - much better they were never born.

I actually think it's verging on twisted and sick. I wouldn't keep someone in my life who thought that was an appropriate thing to ask or hint at.