To not consider surrogacy for SIL when I would for my sister?

[nervousnelly8]

DH's sister has longstanding fertility problems. She has been told surrogacy would be her best option. DH and I were discussing today whether I would consider acting as a surrogate in future (she hasn't asked me directly but has raised it with DH).

I came down pretty firmly on the no side. I'm currently very pregnant with DC2 and I do not enjoy pregnancy. I had bad birth injuries with DC1 and am very apprehensive about going through it again, but know it will be worth it if we get a healthy baby out at the end.

Selfishly, I just don't feel willing to but my body through a pregnancy/birth for SIL, with all the risks that it entails. We're not sure yet if we would like more children after DC2, so that plays a part too.

DH asked if I would be willing to do it for anyone else. And the honest answer was that I would do it for my own sister. I would do anything for my sister. DH understood but was visibly upset, and I now feel like a selfish cow. AIBU?

@purpledaisies and @BackBeatTheWordisOnTheStreet

I never said they did...I'm responding to the op where she said in her opening post that she felt like a selfish cow.

@RedToothBrush

If you're saying that no one, including me, should be a surrogate. That it's disgusting to even ask anyone, including me, to be a surrogate than it is exactly about me. You're talking about taking away MY right to decide whether or not to act as a surrogate. That is about me.

I am in no way suggesting that anyone should be a surrogate if they don't want to be. No one should feel guilty about not wanting to do something so huge. They don't have to justify saying no to such a request. If they say no they should not be pressured to change their mind.

What I object to is the idea that they shouldn't get to make that choice for themselves which is what you're suggesting.

@RedToothBrush

Easy to say when you have children.

Bullshit.

I think its easy to discuss the exploitation and emotional blackmail of women and how surrogacy is the commodification of babies regardless of whether you have your own or not.

Someone without a child might wish to speak about ethics and morality for their own selfish ends but it doesn't change those ethics and morality.

In fact anyone considering surrogacy needs to understand these issues more than anyone else because if they then decide to have a baby through surrogacy they are going to have to live with those issues possibly playing out in some way.

I certainly would think less of someone knowing they are happy to minimise the abuse of women just so they could get what they want.

I do not think anyone childless should be given an easy ride over this. Not when there is potential for the mother to die in the process of having a baby, particularly if that mother already has dependent children of her own who already need their mother. They should always come before the wants of an infertile couple.

I completely agree In fact I wish I had written this myself

I dont think the SIL was asking her DH to ask OP outright. My Dsis struggled to conceive and had a number of miscarriages. I am very close to her, and we spoke about surrogacy in a roundabout way the same we did about adoption and IVF. I would do it for any of my sisters as we are all close, but that's my choice.

I dont agree with many of points about surrogacy on here, but that isn't the point of this thread. OP your DH is just upset watching his Dsis go through this (it's difficult watching from the sidelines, wishing you could make everything better) and he shouldn't have mentioned it but he did. I think hes silly to be upset that you would do it for your Dsis of course you will be closer to her so that is more likely. It likely that he knows and understands your view but when you are upset you sometimes respond in an inappropriate or insensitive way.

Its. Not. All. About. You

This.

Women with privilege who "choose' to surrender bodily autonomy commercially enable industries which generate benefits for men by exploiting women without privilege.

[quote BackBeatTheWordisOnTheStreet]@RedToothBrush

Im sorry but yes it is for me to make that decision about how vile, disgusted and revolting that is.

Wow what an arrogant person you are. So you think you know better than me what I want to do with my body for what reasons? You think you, instead of me, should get to decide whether I carry a baby or not and for what reasons?

Out of interest what makes you more qualified than me to decide how I use my body? Should you also get to decide what risks other people take with their own bodies (for example fire fighters, doctors deaing in infectious disease, dangerous sports) or is it exclusively women' during pregnancy in which you're an expert in how everyone else should use their bodies?[/quote]
Surrogacy is a very contentious topic not least of all because it so often involves lone or vulnerable women being exploited by people who have money to buy what they want which is a baby.

You are naive to assume that for swathes if women who do this they is about choice and empowerment. It most certainly not.

@C8H10N4O2 absolute rubbish. Posting ridiculous statements like that without any context is just demonstarting your unbelievable bias. Of course no one respects such a silly belief system.

@EmpressoftheMundane

Reading more of the thread, and focussing on the second half of the post...

There is mass agreement that no one should be under the slightest pressure to be a surrogate. The whole concept is suspect and delicate.

Now for the husband asking, “would you do it fir anyone.” I do think the easy way out would have been to tell him a white lie and know in her heart that she would for her sister.

BUT, that would somehow lesson their bond. He becomes someone that she manages rather than sharing everything with. Him asking that question was very wrong in the first place. He was using a debating/persuading technique against his wife, where you take it from a question of yes/no to a matter of degrees.

The OP is no longer arguing that she doesn’t want to be a surrogate but that her SIL isn’t worth it.

Lying beneath the husband’s questions was a desire to use emotional manipulation to push his wife’s boundaries. He may not have understood consciously what he was doing, but that is the effect.

Absolutely this ^

Also for everything RedToothBrush has said.

No one here suggested we should have a system of unregulated surrogacy. That isn't what is being discussed here. OP is not a vulnerable woman. There is no mechanism in which OP having the option to be a surrogate (which she is totally justified in turning down without justifying herself in any way) forces anyone else who is vulnerable to become a surrogate. If you're talking about regulating surrogacy that's a completely different issue. If you are just so facile that you think because some forms of surrogacy would take advantage of vulnerable women then all surrogacy must be bad then obviously you need to think a little more carefully.

You're talking about taking away MY right to decide whether or not to act as a surrogate. That is about me

To be fair, society takes away your 'rights' to do loads of things. You don't have the right to drive without a seatbelt for example. I could list hundreds of other things we're not allowed to do.

Personally I think surrogacy is absolutely abhorrent.

Agree with BackBeatTheWordisOnTheStreet

I wouldn't even do it for my sister. I'd give her a kidney but I wouldn't carry a child for her.

I'm not sure exactly what was said when it was raised, but I think it was in a "discussion of the options" type conversation rather than as a direct request. DH didn't come to me and say "SIL wants you to be a surrogate" - it was part of a conversation about how he is finding it hard to see his sister struggling.

OP doesn’t know exactly what was said and neither do any of us. SIL may have not even asked about OP doing it in the first place and it was OP’s husband asking himself without his sister’s knowledge because he wants to help his struggling sister.

OP said herself if it was her sister she would likely help even though it’s a convo they never had. Why is it difficult to believe that OP’s husband could be doing the same thing for his sister without her knowledge? Surely, it’s not out of the realm of possibility instead of assuming SIL told him to ask.

Unless there is some major backstory between OP and her SIL, SIL likely would have asked OP herself if she was considering it. Heck, for all we know SIL may think OP being her surrogate (if she goes that route) weird and awkward depending on their relationship.

Now for the husband asking, “would you do it fir anyone.” I do think the easy way out would have been to tell him a white lie and know in her heart that she would for her sister.

BUT, that would somehow lesson their bond. He becomes someone that she manages rather than sharing everything with. Him asking that question was very wrong in the first place. He was using a debating/persuading technique against his wife, where you take it from a question of yes/no to a matter of degrees.

Yes, precisely. If I were the OP I would have lied, but the DH was acting appallingly to ask her the question in the first place. There was no reason or excuse for it, and as his partner in the late stages of pregnancy, it should've been him protecting her rather than vice versa. Whatever your stance on the initial discussion between SIL and DH and then the DH raising the issue of surrogacy with OP, he was completely in the wrong to ask whether she'd do it for anyone else.

I would be a surrogate for my SIL but not for other people. I think it would be rude to let those other people know that I wouldn’t (whilst still in a hypothetical situation).

Are you in the USA? I highly doubt a medical professional in the UK would suggest surrogacy even in a list of possible options, as PP said, it’s an ethical minefield!

YANBU in any way, this should be the end of the conversation with DH and SIL.

YANBU and your DH being "visibility upset" is ridiculous.
Your body, your choice 1000%.

Also I agree them talking about it without you if your DH was actually thinking if you would do it is wierd. Shows lack of respect.

I personally would not do it for anyone as had a difficult birth and know how much damage you can suffer if things go wrong BUT I can definitely understand being more willing to do it for my sister but not SIL.

@BackBeatTheWordisOnTheStreet

No one here suggested we should have a system of unregulated surrogacy. That isn't what is being discussed here. OP is not a vulnerable woman. There is no mechanism in which OP having the option to be a surrogate (which she is totally justified in turning down without justifying herself in any way) forces anyone else who is vulnerable to become a surrogate. If you're talking about regulating surrogacy that's a completely different issue. If you are just so facile that you think because some forms of surrogacy would take advantage of vulnerable women then all surrogacy must be bad then obviously you need to think a little more carefully.

So would you regulate in that a woman cannot be paid ? That she is contractually obligated to hand over the child she carried and gave birth to even if as might very often be the case she changes her mind?

What do you mean by regulate?

If you are quoting me then I suggest you take your own advice and think carefully. Perhaps read my post too, in which I said that “so often” it involves exploitation which it does. It would be facile to argue otherwise.

I don’t actually think increased regulation would ultimately prevent that exploitation due to the nature of the issue and the emotional complexities it is fraught with.

It is wrong to brush the very real elements of abuse through imbalance of power in surrogacy by suggesting that because some women experience less of it this somehow or don’t need to do it therefore makes it alright.

YANBU. It's entirely your decision, for your reasons. Personally the only person I'd do it for is my own sister. I don't think it's fair of anyone to ASK.

Nobody has the absolute freedom to do what they want with their bodies. We have a plethora of legislation preventing us from taking certain risks and from harming others in the process.

Surrogacy does massive harm to society: in the way that women as a class are viewed as incubators or egg generators; to the birth mothers (there are always physical side effects to a pregnancy, and who knows the untold emotional the poor woman involved (you never hear about them in all the celebrity stories of surrogacy); and most importantly, to the babies, who lose the bond they have with the women who grew them. That's why it is banned in most of Europe.

Whether any one individual would be happy to do it is neither here nor there. You might be happy to drive up the motorway without a seatbelt. You might be happy to press yourself up against a co-worker in the lift. You might be happy to do all sorts of things with your body and there may be no harm to you. That doesn't mean there will be no harm, or potential harm, to others. But we legislate for classes of people, not individuals, and as class, women are harmed by surrogacy.

This isn't a thread to discuss the intricate details about how surrogacy is regulated. This is a thread to discuss the OP who has the optionto become a surrogate but doesn't want to. I simply believe that OP should have the right to make that decisions herself. I don't believe she should feel in any way guilty for saying no. I don't believe she needs to justify why she said no. If she does choose tell us why she said no any reason is valid. If OP's sister asked her to become a surrogate and OP said yes that is her decision too. Not yours or mine. If OP was vulnerable or being exploited in some way either in the request from her SIL or a hypothetical request from her sister then the issues of exploitation would become relevant. They are not relevant here. You don't get to choose for OP that she should not become a surrogate just as her husband or sil or anyone else don't get to choose that she should become a surrogate.

...I couldn’t put through myself and my children through the risk of me dying/having significant injuries. Have you asked your DH what his plans would be should you die in child birth?
I think in your circumstances it wouldn't be a good idea to do it for any one. Your husband has not felt any discomfort, pain, tearing, or had any of the difficult recovery or life threatening problems that you have.
He has zero experience of the reality.
Your sister is someone you have known all your life, his sister has nowhere near the same history, blood, familiarity.
She could quite easily disappear from your life & never be seen again, the same is less likely with your sister.

@BackBeatTheWordisOnTheStreet

This isn't a thread to discuss the intricate details about how surrogacy is regulated. This is a thread to discuss the OP who has the optionto become a surrogate but doesn't want to. I simply believe that OP should have the right to make that decisions herself. I don't believe she should feel in any way guilty for saying no. I don't believe she needs to justify why she said no. If she does choose tell us why she said no any reason is valid. If OP's sister asked her to become a surrogate and OP said yes that is her decision too. Not yours or mine. If OP was vulnerable or being exploited in some way either in the request from her SIL or a hypothetical request from her sister then the issues of exploitation would become relevant. They are not relevant here. You don't get to choose for OP that she should not become a surrogate just as her husband or sil or anyone else don't get to choose that she should become a surrogate.

You don’t get it do you?

The reasons so many of us are angry for the OP is that despite suffering serious injuries during her first child’s birth and currently being heavily pregnant her husband brought this to her door. Her husband, that’s right.

She shouldn’t even have to say no
She shouldn’t have even been asked
If she wanted to do it she could speak up and say so but she hasn’t.

She is not some sort of chattel to provide incubation services because she is seen as a kind loving person and a good mother.

It is very worrying that even in this intimate relationship setting and circumstances somehow a woman’s body and history and feelings were irrelevant enough even to her husband to not prevent him from broaching the subject.

If a pregnant married woman is made to feel this way cast the net a bit wider and the consider the horrific exploitation that goes on in this context.

This isn't a thread to discuss the intricate details about how surrogacy is regulated.

Do you have no concept of an evolving discussion?

I wouldn’t do it for my DH sister but I would do it for my brothers wife if they had problems.
Not sure why, it must come down to the relationship between both.