Please help with this life changing decision

[TravelDrift10]

Hi Mn, i did post previously but am struggling with this.

We have the option to move back to a country that we previously lived in. We moved back to our home country when we had dc and thought it was best to raise them around a good support system. We moved back and that support fell through in a bad way. We have also experienced so much unhappiness here but im wondering if i am allowing these issues to cloud my thinking.

Home country is a developing country.
The biggest PRO is our financial situation. We were able to save alot in the UK, and have purchased our dream home outright. DC(4,2) are going to the best private schools. And we have the best private medical care. Dc school is a 2 minute walk and DH is a 5 minute drive from work. I am a sahm with a live in housekeeper. We are financially free and could retire right now (both 40). My dc and future gc will be financially set up. It sounds absolutely crazy to leave this situation.

BUT

The country is crime ridden. We are able to afford the very best of security and convenience but I will never go anywhere alone with my dc. For most people I know that live here, they go about life because they havent had another experience to compare to. I lived in the other country, and felt safe. I can take a walk to the shop. I wouldnt dream of doing that here. As a female, I wouldnt even dream of going out at night.

Secondly, since we have moved back we have lost so much. Friendships, relationships all non existent. It seems us moving away and coming back to suddenly afford a very good lifestyle created alot of resentment amongst those closest to us.
We also lost a child late into my pregnancy and the reactions from our closest people just broke us.
I feel like there isnt anywhere to turn here, but i dont want to partly base this decision on people who have hurt us.

For us to move back, we would have to give up most of our financial security to start again. And my dc and I would be going over on my dh visa, should anything happen to him we would have to leave so that is a huge risk as well.

Would you give up so much and take this massive risk for a fresh and hope for the best or just stick it out

PS I should however put in that I myself have now left the UK for an EU country, because of Brexit. But if there was a straight choice between SA and UK (the choice I had all those years ago, and it was not easy leaving then, I have no support in the UK and never have had) I would go UK.

Toss a coin, then see if you are disappointed by the outcome, that’ll tell you where your heart is.

I can understand the struggle to give up the material lifestyle you have there but sometimes that isn’t everything. I was interested to talk to one of the Nigerian mothers of a child at DS’s boarding school. They have the huge house there, armed guards on the gates, drivers to take them everywhere but they send their children to board in the uk and love it here. She was talking with such joy about the pleasure she had had that morning, she had gone to buy blinds at Dunelm mill, she had taken a taxi and also stopped for coffee. She was so animated about how we don’t realise what we have in the uk. Everyone was so kind, polite and decent, she could feel safe taking a taxi, was treated respectfully in dunelm mill (where she could buy all sorts of things that are hard to get in Nigeria...dunelm mill! Hardly Harrods) Women were not treated well in Nigeria and she had the kind of freedoms here that would be unthinkable there. At home kidnap and rape were common place, women didn’t go anywhere without security. They’d sent their sons here to board so they would become in her words ‘English gentlemen’ by that she didn’t mean part of a social elite but rather polite and honest just like her British taxi driver had been. It was quite a reminder how lucky we are in the uk, how we don’t really know what sexism, racism, criminality or many of life’s nasties really are.

you seem quite nervous
Do you have any idea what OP’s day- to- day life in Joberg will be like? It’s in no way comparable to London knife crime.

[quote inchyra]@Malahaha
I have very fond memories of my childhood there, when it was a colony, and clean, and safe.

It was clean and safe for you. What was life like for the locals?

The shit that white settlers are in now across Africa is a direct result of colonisation. There’s a criminal element everywhere, but extremes of wealth and poverty and the justification of a sort of payback has created a disaster. I’m not saying it’s justified at all, but you can understand many locals think taking back control is a kind of payback.[/quote]
I am/was a local. I am neither white, nor upper class. I did not belong to the "extreme" of wealth that you seem to be hinting at. My family was solid local middle class, racially far beneath the stratum of the white colonising power, a stratum we could never achieve.

People in Western countries often speak of the "extremes of wealth and poverty", forgetting that in developing countries there is also a "local" middle class where people live lives quite comparable to those in richer countries, with cars, fridges, and normal jobs. It's not just rich vs poor.

It was indeed clean everywhere, and there was very little crime.

Yes, there were problems, which is why we fought for Independence. My family were among those that fought, with the oppressed labouring classes, to throw out the British.

It's unfortunate that the British supported regime that took over was extremely corrupt.

@Thehollyandtheirony

you seem quite nervous Do you have any idea what OP’s day- to- day life in Joberg will be like? It’s in no way comparable to London knife crime.

Absolutely this. A bit nervous 😂

I work with a lot of South Africans in the city. Unlike the Aussies and kiwis, who are quite happy go lucky and who generally feel they have two good options in terms of places to live (kiwis often return, Aussies are a mixed bag, especially those from relatively conservative parts of Australia or Western Australia where you have to love outside as you are a long way from things), not one of the South Africans is planning to go back with their families. It is just not safe there at the moment. And the country's situation is deteriorating.

Some of the posters who talk about Brexit and hostile environment are being totally ridiculous and need to give their heads a wobble IMO - you can't compare what the U.K. is going through (crappy as it is) to South Africa's lawlessness and social and economic deterioration, especially as a woman. Economically, the U.K. is likely to suffer recession for a while, but if the OP's husband is in a relatively secure profession (and if he has a job offer in prospect at this moment in time, pandemic and all, he probably is), they are likely to do fine (albeit with a different type of lifestyle than they have in south Africa). None of my South African colleagues are lying awake at night worrying about having a job in a year's time or that the Home Office will kick them out - they are well paid professionals who have lots of job options, even in lean times (they are highly qualified in IT, finance or law, plus I have a few friends who are medics, don't know what your situation is OP?). Not sure if you would be able to work in the U.K., OP?

The idea that South Africa will be transformed into a magic place in 20 years time when OP's kids are looking for jobs seems fanciful. I hate Brexit, but again the comparison here is just totally misplaced in terms of likely options. Even putting aside loss of EU citizenship, your abilities to work, study and travel as a U.K. citizen even post Brexit are likely to be greater than in South Africa as a young person. Not least being counted as a home student in the U.K.

[quote oakleaffy]@2Zebras

long as one dresses sensibly???

Please explain what you meant by this? Are you suggesting that if I go out at night with revealing clothes I am inviting men to attack/rape me? You are disgusting!!

It is common sense.

Walking home through urban areas in club wear and high heels is going to get all sorts of unwelcome attention.

Who needs that hassle?

One has to be realistic.

Be my guest if you want to get lots of unwelcome attention if you miss the last bus home.

Sensible footwear so one can run if necessary is just common sense.

If you think this is ''Disgusting'' you clearly haven't been hassled by men.[/quote]
OP sorry for derailing your thread: I feel this posters view should be challenged.

Hassle = rape? Yeah, who wants that hassle?

You couldn't be further from the truth. I was raped on my way home from work at around 6 pm. I was wearing trousers, jumper over a long sleeves shirt, a a coat with scarf (that he used to silence me) and flat shoes. It was in the national news as the rapist had attacked many other women. I'm sure you can find it if you want to continue victim blaming.

Victim blaming is disgusting. You were victim blaming.

Raspberry, if you were referring to me, you misunderstood. I am not comparing Brexit to anything, just mentioning the reason I no longer live in the UK. My choice this year was UK or the EU, I wouldn't have entertained for a moment going "back" to SA (although have not lived there since I was a university student in the 1980s so it wouldn't really be going "back", it's a completely different place now!).

I'd move back here OP. I have some friends from SA here in the UK. They are from Jo'burg and they not only left about 15 years ago, but they brought both sets of parents with them - literally three generations all got out together! And while they talk about how beautiful SA is, how lovely the weather is, they wouldn't go back.

They went back for a holiday last year, just to show the kids where they grew up, etc, and to catch up with old friends and they had a good time, but when I asked if it made them regret their move here they both looked at me like I was crazy. The security situation there sounds terrifying. Friends of theirs were victims of a home invasion, the rapes, the robberies, carjackings, etc

If I were you and you DH is being offered a job back here, wild horses wouldn't keep me in SA. Yes, it's stressful doing an intercontinental move (we did it with a 2-year-old), but five years from now I'm sure you'll look back and be glad you did it. Plus, with your oldest about to start school that's an ideal time to move as primary school is a good time to get settled into a new community, make friends with other families, etc. If you leave it until your DC are older parents don't congregate at the school gate any more and it's much harder to just get chatting. I'm glad you're thinking of going for it.

I lived overseas in various countries as an expat. It looks great form the outside, but often it is a guided cage. I haven't lived in a compound, but still felt restricted. I've had maids and housekeepers.

We came back home for support and family and fell flat on our faces too. We have not had any offers of help at all, but we are OK to sort ourselves out. When you have lived abroad and saved money and come back better off than your friends and family, it often goes down like a lead balloon. I've been told a few times that I cannot expect the same relationship with parents as siblings as we moved away for a period of time.

If you have lived abroad you often feel like you have no home after a while and your anchor has gone, but then on the other side of the coin is the wonderful experiences you have had so it is not all bad. I'll stay in the UK to give my DC roots and wings and then I'll pop off somewhere warm where they can visit me with a £39.99 Easyjet return, Covid willing.

Move back to the UK and live somewhere nice, with good schools. That is my advice.

Just wanted to add that I used to have an expat friend who was brought up with maids and she was 50 and unable to cook a simple dish or any household stuff for herself. She thought that was funny and we thought she was lazy and as useless as a chocolate teapot. It is good for your DC to have life skills.

@theDudesmummy

No not you! I totally agree with you! The poster(s) below you in the thread. Those who have been talking about how dire it is likely to get in the U.K. as if it is comparable. IMO that is madness!

I'm sorry I would have to agree with a PP. I wouldn't want to visit SA either and I have relatives there. The same reason why I would never visit my parents birth country (India) alone either. My SA relatives are third generation immigrants but like you they live in a gilded cage. I couldn't live like that.

I have a lot of my family in SA and Zim as my father's older brother emigrated to Rhodesia in the 60s and had children there. Assume SA is worse than Zim? One cousin still lives in Zim (not hugely wealthy but very nice house not in a gated community); one is retired and lives in a very lovely house in Malawi - I have never heard them comment on any problems. Might Malawi be an option? Another cousin tried moving back to UK with her first husband but that didn't work out. They did go back to Zim but they seperated. She married again but they weren't high earners and they found it very hard. The last straw was when their house was broken in to for the second time and they were both quite badly beaten up - as was their housekeeper trying to protect them. They then said enough was enough and have now retired back here to the UK. they don't have much money but they are happy and safe. If you are thinking of moving to the Uk consider the North East, it is a fabulous place to live, quality of life and cost of living is cheaper and young woman regularly go "out on the town" in skimpy clothes and very high heels in no danger apart from the possibility of frostbite or a broken ankle.

I have travelled in many parts of the world and SA was probably the only place where i felt really unsafe - Its a beautiful country with many wonderful people, but I could not live there for this reason. Leave - no amount of material wealth is worth living in fear

Tricky.

I value my freedom so much. I can run in the country free. I can go where I like. It’s never risk free of course.

What you describe to me sounds like a half life. I would leave. Money isn’t enough

We only get one shot at this life. So don’t live a life that makes you unhappy if you have other options.

Reading your posts I got a really strong sense you want to return to the UK and I think I'd make the same choice. I know it's easier said than done financially but surely it's better for you and your children to live somewhere you can feel mostly safe. In fact reading this has made me realise how much I take this for granted.

Best of luck with it all and sorry for your loss

I honestly think you should leave again.

If you're not citizens of the UK, any of you, is it worth considering another country, like Australia? or is that too hard to get into? I'm a British expat in Australia, so I know it's not very easy!

I guess it depends on your DH's work and visa situation, and whether or not his job is a "wanted" one.

But I would not stay in SA, I'm sorry. I just wouldn't. There are lots of South Africans in Australia too!

Or if you do decide to go back to the UK, perhaps (again, jobs allowing) you go for somewhere cheaper than London - there are plenty of UK areas that don't cost what London does!

I have several friends from SA and other countries like Zimbabwe and almost all the people I know have moved to UK and made lives here if they can due to safety reasons.

The one couple I know who do live there are elderly and parents of a friend of mine and live in a gated community by the sea and the other people are siblings of another friend with DC there who live in a similar community.

I do know someone I used to work with who goes back home to see his DP and has land there but I don't think he'd move back there and in past few years bought property with his SO here.

I do think a lot of people are torn - the older people (most people I know are in their 40s) know what SA was like when they were growing up which was a great place to grow up, safe, easy to travel around etc - of course things have changed a lot in recent years, some people are more tactful about this than others, I know a white SA hairdresser who is very racist and says blacks are the main reason people are being pushed out. Maybe that's true in some cases.

Life here is harder - you won't get the lifestyle you want easily but it's infinitely easier than living in a country where you're scared for your life. I've heard of at least one personal story where there's been a break-in in SA and they've attacked the people living there.

Funnily enough an ex-SO of mine had the opportunity to do something big in SA to do with energy last year - it didn't come off but he was waxing lyrical about the gated community, beach life etc - I think in Port Elizabeth - his plan was to spend 5 years there and then move to another European country but he didn't seem to realise that even though he'd have a bodyguard etc that life wouldn't be all that great and could get worse.

Depending on your status here I think you've said you either have Settled Status or your DH is English - ok you might want to spend the money and time on it - but I'd apply for British Citizenship, indefinite leave to remain etc or Dual Nationality - just see a good immigration lawyer and look at your options which it looks like you'd be able to afford. I used to work as a Legal PA in a solicitors and we dealt with a few people getting British Citizenship etc who were SA, Zimbabwe etc - this was approx 5 years ago and things have changed and Home Office probably got tighter but as long as you have a good immigration lawyer they should be able to advise you on your options.

Move back to the UK and good luck!

@ThumbWitchesAbroad

I honestly think you should leave again.

If you're not citizens of the UK, any of you, is it worth considering another country, like Australia? or is that too hard to get into? I'm a British expat in Australia, so I know it's not very easy!

I guess it depends on your DH's work and visa situation, and whether or not his job is a "wanted" one.

But I would not stay in SA, I'm sorry. I just wouldn't. There are lots of South Africans in Australia too!

Or if you do decide to go back to the UK, perhaps (again, jobs allowing) you go for somewhere cheaper than London - there are plenty of UK areas that don't cost what London does!

ThumbWitchesAbroad - agreed - lots of SAs in Australia - I know of quite a few SAs in Australia who liked it so much that their siblings etc moved here too the only people who generally didn't or couldn't move were the DPs of these people if they were too old to move etc for whatever reason.

I'd leave, you're raising your children in a bubble, a well shielded bubble but as they grow older they will need the freedom to stretch their wings and the peace of mind not to fear what would happen if they spill out if their bubble into the street.

It sounds as if there are good reasons to move from where you are now, as you don't feel safe there, so you won't feel happy and settled whilst that is the case. As your children want to try independence that worry will increase.
Tbh, unless you have something specific to come to the UK for (like an extended family who you actually want to spend regular time with) I wouldn't particularly choose moving to the UK right now either - there are so many other countries (especially in Europe and Oceania) that have a better standard of living and use English as a main or very common language.

P

Canada!

@motheroftwoboys

I have a lot of my family in SA and Zim as my father's older brother emigrated to Rhodesia in the 60s and had children there. Assume SA is worse than Zim? One cousin still lives in Zim (not hugely wealthy but very nice house not in a gated community); one is retired and lives in a very lovely house in Malawi - I have never heard them comment on any problems. Might Malawi be an option? Another cousin tried moving back to UK with her first husband but that didn't work out. They did go back to Zim but they seperated. She married again but they weren't high earners and they found it very hard. The last straw was when their house was broken in to for the second time and they were both quite badly beaten up - as was their housekeeper trying to protect them. They then said enough was enough and have now retired back here to the UK. they don't have much money but they are happy and safe. If you are thinking of moving to the Uk consider the North East, it is a fabulous place to live, quality of life and cost of living is cheaper and young woman regularly go "out on the town" in skimpy clothes and very high heels in no danger apart from the possibility of frostbite or a broken ankle.

motheroftwoboys It depends entirely on your situation (wealth etc) from what I know about living in Zimbabwe compared to SA.

I used to work with a woman who lived in both SA and Zimbabwe, preferred it in Zimbabwe but eventually the entire family moved to UK but I think this was because the DP were Italian so they wanted to be nearer to that country, the woman and her DSis lived in USA inbetween though before both settled in UK.

I was involved with an immigration case for a young woman who was a bit mentally unstable (Bi Polar disorder I think) and had lived and worked and gone to school and uni over here as well as had relatives over here - immigration wanted to send her home to Zimbabwe which was where she was born and did have some family but she said she felt scared, unsafe etc - can't quite recall where she was from but she mentioned living in gated communities and not liking it - but she'd lived in UK like I said too so was used to that freer way of life.