Please help with this life changing decision

[TravelDrift10]

Hi Mn, i did post previously but am struggling with this.

We have the option to move back to a country that we previously lived in. We moved back to our home country when we had dc and thought it was best to raise them around a good support system. We moved back and that support fell through in a bad way. We have also experienced so much unhappiness here but im wondering if i am allowing these issues to cloud my thinking.

Home country is a developing country.
The biggest PRO is our financial situation. We were able to save alot in the UK, and have purchased our dream home outright. DC(4,2) are going to the best private schools. And we have the best private medical care. Dc school is a 2 minute walk and DH is a 5 minute drive from work. I am a sahm with a live in housekeeper. We are financially free and could retire right now (both 40). My dc and future gc will be financially set up. It sounds absolutely crazy to leave this situation.

BUT

The country is crime ridden. We are able to afford the very best of security and convenience but I will never go anywhere alone with my dc. For most people I know that live here, they go about life because they havent had another experience to compare to. I lived in the other country, and felt safe. I can take a walk to the shop. I wouldnt dream of doing that here. As a female, I wouldnt even dream of going out at night.

Secondly, since we have moved back we have lost so much. Friendships, relationships all non existent. It seems us moving away and coming back to suddenly afford a very good lifestyle created alot of resentment amongst those closest to us.
We also lost a child late into my pregnancy and the reactions from our closest people just broke us.
I feel like there isnt anywhere to turn here, but i dont want to partly base this decision on people who have hurt us.

For us to move back, we would have to give up most of our financial security to start again. And my dc and I would be going over on my dh visa, should anything happen to him we would have to leave so that is a huge risk as well.

Would you give up so much and take this massive risk for a fresh and hope for the best or just stick it out

And I guess many of us would be considered incredibly wealthy and “set up for life” if we moved to a developing country! There’s a reason pretty much none of us (uk dwellers) do this...

I'm about to move from the UK to Asia, on a dependent visa, pregnant with a 2 year old. Its doable. I think our life will be better over there than here especially after Brexit - not necessarily financially, but we'll have more space, freedom, a society whose ethos we are more aligned to, its cleaner, less crime, better education and health system...

Its a no brainer for me and i think it would be in your situation too. I would leave.

Why joburg?! I wouldn’t live there for all the money in the world but would live in the Cape or around Durban.

I think that you have made the right decision for you and I really remember the shock of coming to the UK and how safe it felt but you live in one of the worst areas of the country in terms of safety.

We visited South Africa in 2007 and loved it. DC both spent a Summer there, independently, on school exchanges - they were on the East Coast. They had amazing experiences, and made longterm friends, DD especially. Several of their friends are now talking about moving elsewhere - some to the UK - as the situation has deteriorated so badly.

Such a sad situation for so many people.

But OP, you have to put yourself and your family first. Come back to the UK if that is where you feel most at home.

As a pp said, it isn't easy, I know several families who have moved from SA, and all live pretty modestly in UK.

I think a lot might depend on where you need to be in Uk for dh's job. If you have to be in London/South East, then you ar elooking at years of tiny housing and high prices compared to what you will bring with you.
If you have a bit more flexibility, then you have more options.

I put lots of questions upthread, but thinking about it, there are 2 that I would bring to the top.

1. How strong is your relationship with dh? Do you have a reasonable expectation that you will survive the next 5 years until settled status?
2. What are the long term prospects for your kids in SA. Because owning a house and having private education isn't worth much if there is no job at the end of it.

I think in your position, I would leave. Not because I think the UK is so amazing, but because I don't think the next 20 years in SA is going to get any better, and probably get worse.

I have a close relative in SA who has been there for many years and loves it. I have never visited but I assume she must live in some sort of a gated compound, by what has been said here about safety. Is is a problem throughout the whole of SA or would a different area be less dangerous ? I would hate to bring up children, particularly a daughter, somewhere where there was no freedom and a high risk or robbery, murder, rape. If that is an issue everywhere then yes, come back to the UK. You may live a less affluent lifestyle here but your children will be able to play with friends safely, go to the park, have more freedom. The relief from constant worry for you too, makes it worth returning.

Whatever you do, don't beat yourself up for past decisions. It might have all worked out wonderfully. You made the best possible decision with all the information you had at the time. With kindness, no-one has hindsight .

If you truly have zero support and a toxic situation - and the UK is easy to come back to - I'd probably move. However, you'd need to have the resources to weather a depression here as signs are not good for hard-Brexit-pandemic-clusterfuck in 2021. Would you be living hand to mouth here?

Where in uk did u live / plan to live. X

If you have so much wealth, why would you lose everything if you moved back. It doesn't make sense - sell your assets, your husband in another very well paid profession - you appear to have it made!

I do sympathise. I'm also from a developing country (not SA!) and I have very fond memories of my childhood there, when it was a colony, and clean, and safe.

In the intervening 50 years everything has changed. It is dirty, and crime is everywhere. It's possible to have a good life, but only in a bubble. It was good for the country to get Independence, but it still has not found it's feet and struggles with a number of problems.

I moved away in the early 70's and I now have EU citizenship. I've been "home" regularly and still have an enormous affection for the country and its beauty, and still have good friends there. I also much prefer the underlying ethos, which is very different (and more conservative) than current British culture and, I believe, heathier. But much of my love is simply nostalgia, memories of a wonderful time in a wonderful place.

When my mother died I inherited a nice house and now I'm retired I could move back there easily, with a good European pension plus some other income. But I won't. I'll visit, but I won't move back, nor will I encourage my (adult) children and grandchildren to move there. My son lived there for a while and he had to move away -- it was just too crazy.

In your shoes, I'd leave. Start again; take out life insurance for your husband (just in case) but don't live in fear of him dying. Living in fear (whether of a loved one dying or of being attacked by criminals) is destructive. I think, deep inside, you know what you really want, but just need a bit of hand-holding and encouragement. You can do it!

"Crime ridden" would be the decider for me.

If you have so much wealth, why would you lose everything if you moved back.

If the economy has tanked, nobody is going to be buying the OP’s house.

Some posters fail to understand that being “wealthy” in one place doesn’t mean you are wealthy everywhere else!

I would want my freedom. If you can live anywhere in the uk (depending on your husbands job) Wales is cheap

@SirVix, Yes there are safer parts but you are paying for that and at the end of it you can still fall victim very easily. Also a concern for me is that my dc will grow up within a very priviledged bubble, and it worries me that they will really not know what life is outside of that.

I am a sahm but that is completely useless, as I get my dc from school and we come straight home. I would not even dream of taking them to a park. If we go out, we go out as a family as its risky without my dh.

I really am not worried about changing for a more modest lifestyle as I have lived in london before and I know what I have to expect.
Just that, we moved back and absolutely settled ourselves with what i thought would be our final home and realised that its not.
I feel guilty for moving my kids around as well.

I think the baby loss as well has just shaken me so much. The thought of moving and then it not working out and then moving back again was just overwhelming. I guess if I was a stronger person I would be able to make this decision easier.

@Malahaha
I have very fond memories of my childhood there, when it was a colony, and clean, and safe.

It was clean and safe for you. What was life like for the locals?

The shit that white settlers are in now across Africa is a direct result of colonisation. There’s a criminal element everywhere, but extremes of wealth and poverty and the justification of a sort of payback has created a disaster. I’m not saying it’s justified at all, but you can understand many locals think taking back control is a kind of payback.

I also thought SA - i have family there, the kids have grown up, one has moved away (to Europe) and is determined never to go back if possible for the reasons you mention (they've had schoolfriends that were killed, neighbours who were held prisoner in their home) plus the lack of prospects. They are also really worried about the family they leave there. (Otoh they have been fine for decades).

Can you not get your own uk citizenship?

I've moved countries and moved back again so I have loads of sympathy with you, OP, although I didn't move so far. We did feel less safe and lonely in our 'new' country but we couldn't afford it after circumstances changed, so we really didn't have a chance to settle in. However, it was THE most traumatic thing to move and realise we'd made a mistake. I completely understand why you're unhappy.

I think you need to put the past aside, so you're not thinking about what you could have done or should have done. You made the best decisions you could at the time and in some ways they've worked out so well for you (house, financial security, children's schools etc). I've been to SA many, many times and have friends there, and I feel there is a great quality of life there - but security is a huge issue, I know, and it's very different for us as visitors. Could you look at moving to a different part of SA? Or using some of your financial gains to buy a holiday property somewhere safe, where you could walk to the shops and let your kids run free during the holidays? See if a better life balance might make a difference.

SA always strikes me as a place full of ambition and determination and so many good things. People in the UK are very quick to dismiss it without knowing much about it. You can't know what will happen in SA - it might be economically transformed in the next twenty years. The rest of the world will still be there for your kids. As other people have pointed out, the UK is about to enter a really difficult time and the hostile environment promoted by the political establishment might make your visa situation harder.

The issue with friends and family is more difficult and personal, but I think you owe it to yourself to reach out to them and see if you can improve things before you consider leaving, because if you go and leave them behind you will always feel that loss and resentment, and it will be compounded by distance. Have you talked to them about their lack of support? Do you know for sure it's motivated by envy? Have you been open about how you feel or are you trying to hide your feelings? I think people respond so much to being needed - it's easier to give help than to ask for it. (I'm also so sorry for your devastating loss.)

Basically, since what is motivating you is an opportunity that may come up again rather than a desperate need to move, I would try to find solutions to some of your issues. Coming back to the UK was incredibly hard for us and cost us many sleepless nights and tears - it looks like the easier option but it will test you hugely. We had no choice but to come back, but it cost us a fortune and I still wonder about what would have happened if we'd just had better luck!

Are you sure a visa is possible now? What income restraints are in place? If the work is London based can you afford to be a sahm? You'll have to pay for health etc the rules have tightened. Crime rates are not good in London, you seem quite nervous, is rural living an option?

Would cheaper part of the UK be more financially viable such as more north or does husband job tie you to the south?

I grew up in SA, went to school and university there, and my elderly parents still live there (Joburg), as do all of my DH's family. I left there over 30 years ago to live in the UK, I used to go back regularly for holidays. However, since having my son 11 years ago I have not even gone back to SA for a holiday. My parents have made their own adult choices but I am not going to expose my son to that level of risk.

I would advise the OP to leave, personally, although if you were talking to my mother (who is South African) she would tell you it is the most wonderful place on earth and you should definitely stay, and that all the talk of crime and violence is "overdone" (it isn't).

Those who asked why would you not have money in the UK, if you are well-off in SA: it is very very different in terms of earnings/cost of things. Ultra-rich are ultra-rich anywhere, but what you can live on very well as a middle-class professional in SA is in a completely different category from what income you need to live well in UK.

Sorry for your loss I think you're still grieving and in a way it's making all of these decisions seem impossibly significant.
Perhaps it would be better to view the SA move as one that served its purpose at the time. It gave you a bit of breathing space albeit in a glided cage as PPs said.

But, now, it's time to come back to the UK and be able to live a more active, secure life. We have friends who did the same. Moved from the UK to SA and then came back to the UK. It's fine to realise a move isn't permanent after all.

If you're worried about finances then consider moving outwith London. London housing costs, etc are completely out of step with other parts of the UK. You should be able to maintain a high standard of living if you look to the north, the coast, Scotland, Wales, etc.

You sound exhausted and stressed. Be kind to yourself

Its South Africa, I wouldn't live there.

I may have missed this but are you in JHB? Because my friends in CPT are definitely not living like you are. They go to the beach, the park and various other things. So I do think that either you are abnormally aware and nervous of the danger or you are in a particularly dangerous area.

Having said that, I think a lot of (white) south africans who lived in the UK for a while are then surprised on their return to SA. It's not the same country it was when you were young. And overall, that's a good thing but it means that you can't go back if you want it to be the same for you as it was.

Personally, I'd say come back if you're not happy. If you haven't managed to build relationships and you don't have the family support you were expecting, and you aren't able to feel comfortable leading a free life, then come back. Sure, financially you will definitely be worse off, but depending on your finances at the very least you'll be able to extract enough money to pay a good deposit on a house in the UK in a good area with good schools and, based on what your'e saying, your Dh can get a good job (or transfer back with his current one).