To leave my cult-obsessed DP?

[Abbeywell79]

My first time in AIBU but I'm getting bugger-all response elsewhere so I've got my big-girl pants on!

Been with DP for 7 years, 2 toddlers, both knackered but we generally have a solid relationship. Same outlook on life (or used to), views on parenting etc.

When Covid struck, dp kept warning me about how we were going to be given a vaccine with a microchip and we were all going to be controlled etc etc.

We had a huge row about it, I said I didn't want to hear such nonsense and long story short, we agreed we wouldn't discuss it any more otherwise it was going to damage our relationship.

Since then, things have been fine on the surface. Day-to day life has resumed. However, because he hasn't had me to talk to about his worries, he's found a load of new buddies online and he is now a fully-fledged member of Qanon who spout all sorts including Satanism in Hollywood, child trafficking for organ harvesting to keep famous people looking good, lizard people in the royal family, 9/11 faked etc.

I only know this because I set up a fake account so I could follow his groups so I know what he is reading and sometimes what he posts within these groups. Otherwise I wouldn't have a clue as he appears to be the perfect partner/dad the rest of the time.

I can't see a way back from this. I always said I would give things until after the US election (when Trump will apparently save the world and 'all will be revealed') to see if it will improve but I think he is so far gone I've lost the man I fell in love with.

My options seem to be:

1. Stay with him. That way I get to keep an eye on the lunacy and ensure he's not trying to indoctrinate our children as they get older
2. Split up. We are about to move 200 miles away to be nearer my family and I was planning on staying with him until we did that then at least I have support. But then it would mean essentially kicking him out then will I lose my kids to him every other weekend? I don't want them travelling and then I won't be able to monitor what he's telling them
3. Keep it under review. DC aren't being affected by it yet so wait until they're older or until his mask starts to slip and he can't contain his 'secrets' any longer

All options seem pretty depressing.

Friends, I mean this kindly, but I don't think you've ever spoken to someone who believes these things intently. They'll have an explanation. There's always an explanation. You cannot out-logic them. They find proof. The proof might be, for instance, that Tom Hanks seemed healthy in his coronavirus video and they can diagnose his breaths per second, which means that he was being detained by Australian authorities to be charged with crimes against children. That's proof for them.

I would like to believe that we're all operating at the same level, with the same intentions and same rationality, and that we just disagree. But this isn't an open marketplace of ideas. It's really disordered thinking.

You are never going to get anywhere by shutting down the debate, you only really win the argument with a rational evidence.

Not against the kind of people who believe Chrissy Teigen sacrificed her baby, you don't. They are beyond rational evidence, they just believe. There's a reason it's called 'blind faith'.

@ancientgran it's hilarious, isn't it, the hate for Keir Starmer? People slate him for being a 'sir' and conveniently forget that he was born a relatively ordinary bloke. You could say he was middle class, since his mother was a nurse, but that's pushing it. He went to state school (grammar) and sends his kids to state school. But somehow he's too posh and Boris is the ordinary bloke?

You dont stay to protect children.
You leaVe so theg have a safe haven

If you think he is dangerous then leave

Have you ever tried having a reasoned debate with a fundamentalist, Friends?

@Friendsoftheearth

There's a current QAnon belief that Chrissy Teigan did not have a miscarriage but instead had a healthy birth and then sacrificed the baby to make sure that Donald Trump got sick with covid

So instead of acting with outrage or disgust why not simply ask them to provide concrete evidence that this happened?

You are never going to get anywhere by shutting down the debate, you only really win the argument with a rational evidence.

Of course there will be no evidence, nothing concrete to support this theory/fantasy - but choose to dissect it instead. Welcome the opportunity to investigate the truth and the deceit with an open mind and without being patronising other people.

I have no idea if op's dh is in the throes of a MH crisis or not but she won't help him by simply shutting him down.

I'm going to hazard a guess that you've not been in lengthy, close proximity with someone who holds these views. They aren't rational (not the views: the person) - it is all-consuming, and it starts to impinge on others' lives; the person does not simply get on quietly with their beliefs, but turns into a proselytising machine. My family member has done the same: emailing regular links, telling us not to get vaccinated, dominating every conversation with the same stories no matter the subject that was initially raised, taking their children out of school, cutting off from the outside world save only for their 'new friends'.

This is so sad, i've lost one of my closest friends to this horrible cult. She has cut all ties to friends & family, basically anyone who doesn't agree & now lives in a flat which she never leaves with the walls covered in white boards with permanent marker & pictures on dedicating their life to their 'research'.

It's just awful but there is absolutely no reasoning with this person who says they will give their life for this

@Friendsoftheearth

There's a current QAnon belief that Chrissy Teigan did not have a miscarriage but instead had a healthy birth and then sacrificed the baby to make sure that Donald Trump got sick with covid

So instead of acting with outrage or disgust why not simply ask them to provide concrete evidence that this happened?

You are never going to get anywhere by shutting down the debate, you only really win the argument with a rational evidence.

Of course there will be no evidence, nothing concrete to support this theory/fantasy - but choose to dissect it instead. Welcome the opportunity to investigate the truth and the deceit with an open mind and without being patronising other people.

I have no idea if op's dh is in the throes of a MH crisis or not but she won't help him by simply shutting him down.

No. We should not be forced to pretend such ideas are of any credence. They do not need to be treated with any respect. They are not worthy of debate. It is both outrageous and disgusting that people would invent and perpetuate such a myth, and outrageous and disgusting that others demand we treat it as anything other than the base poison it is.

People like you are really quite dangerous. I've read all your posts to this thread and you're almost managing to pull it off, this representation of yourself as a calm, open minded, balanced individual who just wants everyone to have a nice peaceful chat and make up their own minds. Almost. But your mask isn't perfect and I can see what you are doing. You're more dangerous than the flat out batshit ones who haven't got enough about them to pretend, the ones who haven't yet realised that breathless spluttering about open mindedness, intellectual curiosity, whatareyousoafraidof, etc, just marks them out as one of the cult. You're better at hiding it than them. But you can still be seen.

You can't have a rational debate with these people. You can't have a conversation, you can't parent with them.

I don't think any partner, or any other person, has any obligation to remain with or otherwise deal with people who've fallen into a cult or similar groups, but there is plenty of evidence that people like the OP describes her DP aren't automatically dangerous lost causes.

Just as there is the BITE model and other known tactics of cults to recruit and keep people, there are methods used to help people out and work with them through it. No one should feel obligated to put in that work, it's difficult and can be emotionally very painful and draining, that's why few dedicate their lives to cult deprogramming and talking to people who've been racist organizations for far more than 40 years, but there are resources out there if the OP chooses to try because there are ways to help.

I grew up in an American evangelical group that has heavy overlap with and also come into conflict with QAnon. I've seen people sucked in, I've seen people stuck and I've seen people come out. I do not think people should stick around to work on that just for the sake of relationship, but I also don't think it helps to have the mindset that people in these groups are always disposable.

Abbeywell79 He sounds deep down the path, finding an alternative to the phone scrolling will probably be important if you want to deal with this with him. With the upcoming move, is there any way of discussing things of interest he might get into once back in your area? Get him onto other topics and interests that fit values he's previously said?

I have read up on their links, and most of it lacks any logic or integrity (much of it is not sane), and therefore engaging with them on any intellectual level is actually engaging with the insanity.

The only way I have found to engage in a more or less healthy way (for now, because who knows what will change?) is by engaging emotionally, i.e. not at the level of the problem.

pointy If you consider that Boris ended up at Eton just by chance and did not come from a privileged titled family, he actually experienced a very difficult, sometimes abusive home life - without a mother present whom had serious health problems, he was neglected during childhood - given the comparison you might actually come to the conclusion that Sir Keir was the most fortunate and charmed out of the two.

I am from a working class background, and back in my day we did not have Sir anythings running the party. It was a proper party representing the people, and not the champagne swiggers of Islington's metropolitan elite. If the LP has any hope at all, it needs to regain its authenticity and its root support - without selling off the Union in a hybrid with the SNP in the process. The biased reporting is chilling regardless of party choices.

nancy I am not claiming to have experience with people that are in throes of delusions of this magnitude, I am simply drawing attention to the fact there is a world of difference between those that believe the vaccine is a danger and is untested /Trump is marvellous and a saviour to some and the RF being lizards from Mars!! A world of difference.

Don't get dragged into debating with him, that might work with someone who is just toying with one fairly mild conspiracy theory and can be pulled back, but if he is this far gone it is pointless.

It's no good asking for evidence Friends, they won't see the lack of evidence as any problem so you'd get nowhere. Everything will be twisted or illogical. No rational discussion can be had.

I think I would have to leave, after moving to be nearer your family. I would just have lost all respect for someone like this. I can understand you need serious advice about contact. You would need to get his mental health assessed to see if he would ever 'act' in a dangerous way on any of these beliefs. If it's any consolation I am confident that as the kids grow they will be the first to think he is talking utter shite.

unmark are you feeling okay??? You sound worse than op's dp! Perhaps you are a case in point. I am simply saying if he has other values then hear him out, if he is saying the royal family are lizards then she has a (very big) problem! That is about the strength of it!

I believe there is a place for all views, and everyone is entitled to their POV full stop, what is so controversial about that?! We live in democracy - and there is room for everyone.

Do you believe things he doesn't believe in? In other words, do you believe in God, and he doesn't, or is one of you of one religion and the oether another? Is one of you pro-choice and one pro-life? What about belief in spirits?

I'll give it to you that yes, he does sound an absolute nutter where (most) of the conspiracy conspiracies are concerned, BUT from what you have said, he is otherwise a good partner and a good dad, correct?

The world is going a little bit batshit crazy right now OP, and so are the conspiracy theorists online with their VERY convincing videos and blogs. I have a niece who thinks covid is all a hoax, a GOOD friend who thinks it is about controlling the population. I think their beliefs are ridiculous but they are both wonderful intelligent well-educated (!!) people who, apart from this craziness, enrich my life on many levels. So we agree to disagree on these subjects and we don't discuss them.

I know you have your children to think about. Personally, if he is a good partner and dad otherwise, there is no burning need for you to get rid of him this very minute. Can you let the election happen, let covid settle down, and THEN re-evaluate? If there were no kids involved I would probably say drop and run, but with kids in the mix . . . maybe a set time frame (in your mind) to re-evaluate whether this is a temporary lunacy or something that is going to get intensify and be transmitted to your children, is something to consider.

friendsoftheearth you're really reaching, aren't you? FWIW, Keir Starmer's mother had a form of juvenile idiopathic arthritis, so in the ill mother stakes they are about even. And Boris' family had money. Pots of it. Please don't start about 'poor underprivileged Boris who has worked so hard to get where he is now'. Your class prejudices are really showing. So in your view, no-one who has worked their way up is allowed to be leader of the Labour Party? Puh-leeeeze!

FWIW I think the only way the political system in the UK will ever be repaired is by introducing full Proportional Representation, so that we can have a flourishing of new political movements, each of which will have a shot at getting seats in Parliament. And yes, that means letting in the racists, the religious nutters, the hard core lefties - but extremists will always show themselves up as incompetent and end up as one-parliament wonders. It happens in the Netherlands, it can happen here.

Friendsoftheearth Battles of evidence rarely work and waste a lot of energy. It's not the "facts" that actually have to be argued, but someone's connection to those ideas and the community that holds them.

Discussions of how someone knows something, digging down into it can, but only after enough space on not feeling like one's going to get attacked and only the OP knows if she wants to try giving him that space.

This is why the best in helping people are often the people who've already come out of the same or similar groups. They already know the values that attract the people into the group so they can show how that group isn't living up to those values.

It's harder for those who've never had that experience of getting one's barometer of goodness from an external validating source to know what it means for that to break. Pieces are going to have to be picked up. It's easier if already in/transitioned into a healthier space, reduces the risk of cult hopping. The 'easily led' often are looking for an external judge when struggling to internally determine that. That's why connecting to someone's values are so important, none of these groups will really have them to any depth.

People of good will can debate various perspectives on politics and social issues. But the QAnon lunacy does not include reasonable "alternative viewpoints." It's a jumble of outlandish conspiracy theories, most of which are at heart racist and frantically extremist (not to mention thoroughly mad). I couldn't live with a man who believed that insanity, any more than I could live with a Nazi or a supporter of Isis.

Alas, these views seem more widespread than one would hope. You need look no further than MN which has its fair share of people who believe in all sorts of nonsense, including QAnon, satanic ritual abuse, conspiracy theories about 9/11 and Sandy Hook. I just avoid those usernames when I encounter them. But I can't imagine how difficult it must be to live with a man who believed this guff.

I hope you find a workable solution, OP.

I'm not Into conspiracies but just to let you know the microchip vaccine is a real thing-

news.mit.edu/2019/storing-vaccine-history-skin-1218

pointy Actually Boris' mother was sectioned in a mental health hospital after suffering from domestic violence, they were neglected and uncared for during much of their childhood. Pots of money were not swimming around, they could hardly pay the bills and had to move several times. If you were interested you can read this at length. I have RA and I can tell you it is nothing like dealing with a MH problem that requires sectioning! The fact that Starmer is still called 'sir' and has gone in for the whole titled thing disgusts me on many levels, and I don't feel he is a great leader at all, we deserve much more. But that is just my view. I tend to enjoy reading about the backgrounds and inspirations of those in power, and out of the two Boris has definitely had the harder life out of the two, but you can keep calling him 'privileged' if you want to, but that doesn't make it factually true.

I do agree however that full Proportional Representation would be a great thing for our country, and the abolition of the house of Lords and other such structures that prevent us from having a much more equal society. We spend (used to spend pre covid!) much time living and working in Amsterdam, and they are a very good example I agree. They will argue there is a lack of ambition in the country - but the benefits of the dutch model are very clear and one I wish we could introduce here.

Sorry op. Not wishing to derail the thread.

I might add that the lizard thing would freak me out! So no wonder you are stressed.... I thought it was more along the lines of Bill Gates/Vaccines etc.

@bowtieandheels is correct.

[quote bowtieandheels]I'm not Into conspiracies but just to let you know the microchip vaccine is a real thing-

news.mit.edu/2019/storing-vaccine-history-skin-1218[/quote]
It's not a microchip: it's a dye that shows up under infrared - a bit like one of those stamps to go into a nightclub.

Well, Boris' background hasn't exactly taught him decency or humility, has it? He single-handedly torpedoed Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe, said 'fuck business' when challenged on the genuine worries of business (including many small businesses) about a No Deal Brexit, he refused to make Dominic Cummings take responsibility for his actions during lockdown and oh yes, he illegally prorogued Parliament to get his way. How wonderful he is, what a great human being full of integrity. If you prefer him over Keir Starmer, you really have a twisted view of the world. You don't have to like KS, but he hasn't done 10% of the awful things Boris has done. Why do we always hold Labour politicians to much higher standards than Tory ones?

[quote Boredbumhead]@bowtieandheels is correct.[/quote]
No. There is no mention of microchips in the article. This is indicative of how facts are warped and reinterpreted, and where conspiracies start.

The lizard thing is so out there I agree but so is anyone who actually believe a talking snake that tempted eve with an apple 😆 yeah an apple and that apparently bought sin into the world that we are all doomed to hell and we are so naughty as well us women.. it’s never the mans fault is it. People will always have very disturbing views. I mean this is actually taught as belief. I remember laughing in RE and getting told off.

very well put, @unmarkedbythat

@BertiesLanding machine readable nanoparticles then. Bioluminesant particles that can be read by a smart phone like a vaccine tattoo. Semantics.