High achieving families

[Coldemort]

this isn't about politics disclaimer
So... I ended up down a twitter/wikipedia rabbit hole around the Javid family (most famous being Sajid, but brother Baz is also very high ranking, another brother a CEO, another a millionaire property magnate).
That family are first generation, working class. What is the family dynamic that makes them so very successful?
The Johnsons of the world, I get. When you have wealth, privalege and the best education money can buy, it makes sense you are going to be in the elite.
But what is the dynamic in working class families that produce such high achieving children? (I could reference other families, but the Javids are the one that caught my eye tonight)

Hmm.
DH and I are both high achievers and both from working class families (you’d probably call mine underclass).
We’re both extremely hard working, energetic and ambitious.
Our DC are very similar despite the fact that they’ve grown up in a much more comfortable environment.
There’s this need in us all to be the best but also a steely pragmatism which stops us being perfectionists.

@Russellbrandshair

Yes you did your research but could you have predicted a global pandemic

Of course I couldn’t predict that. But I picked an industry that I knew would never become obsolete, replaced by an app, etc it’s an industry that will never ever go anywhere because it’s based on human need. That doesn’t mean I’m oh so wise or that other industries are unwise, I just mean I thought very very carefully about my skill set and the viability of something I would invest in. Btw, the bank do give loans without houses as security for this industry as I’ve since met others who have done it. It’s a government backed loan so it’s possible to start up without a house! I had to put it on my house since government won’t back you if you already have collateral. Again- all this can be easily discovered by research if you are motivated enough.

I'm not denying you've not worked hard or researched or invested wisely. But luck and chance play a part in everyones lives and choices.

There are many businesses and industries that are failing right now - and it's not because they didn't plan, or they picked an industry that could be replaced by an app. It's because we're in a global pandemic and the government has chosen to support certain industries.
There will be thousands of people who worked as hard as you and researched and planned as much as you but haven't made a success of it. Some of that will be due to luck .....

Acknowledging the role of luck or chance does not detract from your hard work.

@C8H10N4O2

Some families seem to be naturally highly intelligent - even working class families.

You read that wrong - i was being sarcastic. I should have added an exclamation mark or something to make it clear.

@trixiebelden77 - Goodness. I would never call a property magnate a ‘high achiever’. Depends on what you think success is though.

Go on then, what's your definition of success?

My dad came from a very poor farming background in Ireland. He was one of a large family and my grandparents were often abusive to the kids. Compulsory education in Ireland at the time was from 7-14 but he wasn't there a lot anyway, as his parents didn't see the point really of education. If a cow was calving or whatever he was kept off school to help. As a result he was only semi literate/enumerate. I'd guess he'd read as well as your average 7 year old. He could read the Sun or the Mirror, though didn't often, preferring to get his news from the telly. He could go into a working man's cafe and order a meal. I can't remember him ever reading for pleasure.

Anyway, what he had was drive and he was a real hard worker. He came to London and worked in construction and ended up running a successful small building firm, and did well from it.

My mum also came from a working class background. She came from London but her parents were Irish. My grandparents worked in factories and manual work. But they were shrewd and thrifty and that together with housing being cheaper then, ended up owning a large house, taking in lodgers to help pay the mortgage. At the time, you could finish school at 15. My mum was the oldest. Back then most working class people finished at 15-especially girls, who saw work as something they did in factories or shops before having babies. My mum did Olevels and a secretarial course, which doesn't sound much but for the time it was. Her younger siblings include teachers, solicitors and even a QC.

Me and my brothers and sister were always encouraged to make the most of opportunities we had, and as a result all have either degrees or professional qualifications, and now there's a teacher, a finance manager, a mental health nurse and an events organiser amongst us. However only the finance manager (my brother) has anything like the money my dad earned!

One aspect that has not been mentioned yet is the effect the siblings would have had on each other. Rivalry could easily be a factor in pushing up the achievement level and lifestyle habits of those close to you can be observed and copied.

There’s an interesting book by Judith Harris in which it is argued that a child’s peer group is as important, if not more important, than parents in shaping the way children develop. Close-in-age siblings are part of a person’s peer group in the formative years. It’s easy to see how similar behaviours could develop and be reinforced by feedback loops amongst them all, irrespective of socioeconomic background.

There’s also a saying ‘You are the average of the five people you spend the most time with’, which captures the possibility of an achievement ‘clumping’ effect amongst siblings.

Sadly it's also possible in such circumstances for a less successful sibling to just check out of the race because they don't fit in. So I can see a polarising effect growing up in such a family, one way or the other.

I think in most cases parents play a key role. Sure, there are some people who come from chaotic, unsupportive homes, who do well nonetheless, because they have some internal drive or because someone else, like a teacher, becomes a mentor to them.

But for most children what makes a difference is how their parents see education and success, and the “culture” at home.

Luck plays a huge part. Even just being lucky in having parents who encourage and support you. My parents threw money at my education and were supportive but once I left school and university, my mum was dead and my dad had stopped caring or being any help. I remember leaving university and literally having no idea how or what kind of job to get...so i fell into a shitty admin role and ended up stuck

David's father found him a tutor when he discovered his school only offered foundation maths at O level. Without that maths O level, he wouldn't have gotten into a good 6th form.
While poor, it sounds like they were aspirationally and culturally middle class.

They often talk about MPs who have made a success before parliament. He genuinely was a good banker and achieved a lot early in his career. He's clearly smart.

@Al1Langdownthecleghole

What interests me is when it’s whole families of successful people. What are the factors in their upbringing that make the difference?

As the OP says, easy to explain when it’s a family of privilege, less so amongst more humble origins. A factor that often strikes me in autobiographies is the role of mothers, frequently it seems there is an intelligent woman in the background driving learning.

This! I'm mildly obsessed with the Kanneh-Mason family: 7 siblings, all of whom are brilliant musicians. What really comes across is how much they love music - it's not something they are doing to become rich or powerful, but it's something that they're astoundingly good at, and that gives them huge joy. However, it's also clear that they work really hard at developing their natural talent - 2 hours of practice a night, and 4 or 5 at weekends! Also, their parents are hugely supportive and loving: their mother gave up a career as an academic to support them, and the younger ones get up at 4.30am to travel from their home in Nottingham to a specialist London music school. I saw an interview with Mariatu, the youngest sibling, when she was about 8. The interviewer asked how she felt about her older brother Sheku saying she might be a better cellist than him when she grows up. She said something along the lines of "You don't just be brilliant, you have to work at it!". I think it's the combination of natural talent, opportunities to develop it, resilience, hard work and supportive parents that have allowed these kids to achieve so highly.

And I agree with formerbabe that luck plays a huge part. Malcolm Gladwell's Outliers is particularly illuminating about the external random factors that can contribute to success.

Hard work, intelligence, perseverance, and prioritising success over all else. It must be exhausting.

Something that people usually forget is that genetic ability depends on the right environment to be expressed. I am not saying that it is a genetic charactheristic that keads to succes, but there are a number of traits that do have genetic basis that can contribute.
Thus, when the whole family all of a sudden express a trait, it could be because all of a sudden the right environment came along, to allow a certain charactheristic to make a difference.

For example, there are lots of incredible intelligent and creative kids living in conditions that does not allow them to put to even know thaiy are capable. A migration or political event that allow the next generation to have access to education, can be transformative to a whole family.

There are a lit of assumptions made about social mobility. Access to education is important, obviously, but i read a very convincing analysis of social mobility among baby boomers that showed that it was labour shortages leading to full employment that lead to social mobility in the 50s and 60s. Workers could move from job to job easily to find something that suited them and advance their experience and pay as they went, ie. You could work your way up the ladder relatively quickly if you were prepared to move around (or even emigrate). It didn't matter if you left school young as you proved yourself in the workplace. Didn't like your job or got sacked? Go down the labour exchange and get another...
Of course improving access to educational opportunities, full grants were also a driver; My Dad, first in family to go to uni, my FIL left school at 15, both from poor families in the same town both moved up to comfortable middle class lives (both worked very hard obviously and yes, were tougher than than the following generations of softies, myself included).

Mental health plays a huge part too. I have anxiety and it causes me to hugely procrastinate. I panic over making phone calls, application forms, paperwork, approaching other people. I always feel like I don't want to bother or annoy people. This trait is not conducive to a successful career in anything

@PracticingPerson

What matters more is not 'how did this one person succeed' but 'why in Britain are so many people struggling despite hard work every day'?

This is the crux of it all. Our world was not built by a handful of super successful entrepreneurs; the reason humans have evolved to the place we have is because we are a collaborative and social, community based species. Capitalism is the antithesis of what naturally caused us the become the most dominant species, because by its definition not everyone can win. The visual of capitalism being a pyramid scheme, mentioned above, is a very helpful one for understanding why capitalism is not ethical or sustainable

It really depends on your definition of success....is it academic, financial, personal? Many people on here term people running large businesses as successful-but to me it genuinely sounds boring. No disrespect. I know lots of people doctors, teachers and academics who genuinely love their job and by now also want to have a balanced family life. They wont be financially successful but I think that's still high achievement. I used to earn triple for exactly the same job as I do now (different country) - and it was nice but not nice enough to do 60hrs weeks doing a job I dont like.

I think it is partly genetics and partly work ethic. Often the parents are very intelligent people who have been somehow disadvantaged. They pass on a high value of education and intelligence too. There are some individuals from neglectful families who work hard and have a strong drive to succeed but when all the children are high achievers I think the above factors are usually involved.

It is also true that high achieving people are not always the nicest. They might have the interpersonal skills to get what they want, but they don't always care for people deep down. They are also usually facilitated by others, often women, who do the unrecognized work.

I've been lucky enough to be among some really stellar people who are not on paper high achievers. People without formal qualifications, who aren't Insta ready (might smoke, for example), who are prepared to do the shit work (literally) of caring for, cleaning up, and reaching out to those who are very disabled or terminally ill. They don't have paper success, but they are very successful in life, as they have a 'vocation' (their words not mine) which leads them to feel incredibly purposeful and valuable.

I'm impressed by people who show up to life and act as if they matter. I don't really care whether they take over a company or hold a dying man's hand through the night (not part of their 'official' duties!) Both are high achieving in my eyes.

Great post Popping!

Aroundtheworld, C8H,

Regarding Margaret Thatcher, don't forget the influence of marrying a millionaire (which had a greater financial meaning in the '70s) who was well-connected added to her capabilities though she tended to emphasis the hard work rather than having financial resources and connections.

Agree. Depends how you define success.

He is obviously successful financially and has one of the ‘top’ jobs but as a person?

He’s morally bankrupt.

It depends also on how you determine success.

My parents were pregnant with me at 15 and 16. Left school with no qualifications but supported each other to train and study and become successful in their fields. My sister and I are both successful teachers with quite high TLR payments. Never going to be millionaires buy very successful in the education field and very happy with a career we’ve wanted to do since children. My brother is a doctor - obviously higher earning power but again he’s very happy and content with his career choice. We all got top grades in school, a level and degrees however.

I’d say we’re all successful- but not multi millionaire, worlds highest achiever successful.

This was due to my parents being nurturing but strict, and also particularly watching my mum work her arse off to get a degree, then a masters, whilst working full time and being an amazing mum was completely awe inspiring.

Saying that luck plays a part doesn't detract from anyone's success. It's what you do with luck/chance/opportunities that counts.

For many people the 'luck' element is the bit they take for granted ..... parental support, school you attended, friends, where you were born, access to education, economics, government policy.

@NOTANUM I think there is some truth that for most lucrative jobs or careers, that aren't outstanding entrepreneurs a good GCSE in Maths is essential because you need the understanding from Maths.
I know English is essential as well, but my experience is Maths is the key.
Making children fear Maths is the biggest barrier to success.