High achieving families

[Coldemort]

this isn't about politics disclaimer
So... I ended up down a twitter/wikipedia rabbit hole around the Javid family (most famous being Sajid, but brother Baz is also very high ranking, another brother a CEO, another a millionaire property magnate).
That family are first generation, working class. What is the family dynamic that makes them so very successful?
The Johnsons of the world, I get. When you have wealth, privalege and the best education money can buy, it makes sense you are going to be in the elite.
But what is the dynamic in working class families that produce such high achieving children? (I could reference other families, but the Javids are the one that caught my eye tonight)

I wondr how much the Grammar Schools (before expensive tutors became a thing) layeda part. Also free University tuition and maintenance grants (not loans).
The obly person mentioned so farI know much about is M Thatcher. But she wen to the normal local primary (in the crowded terrace streets- not sure where exactly she lived in town) then the Girls Grammar. Before free university.

I picked an industry carefully (and we’ve been busier than ever throughout lockdown so it was a wise choice), I took out a huge bank loan that I had to secure on my house so we could have lost everything.

This is your combination of luck and planning.
Yes you did your research but could you have predicted a global pandemic?- there are lots of people who also made well researched choices which were very successful in normal times but not at the moment.
You were fortunate enough to have a house so you could secure a loan. There are many who would have been turned down for a loan and therefore unable to start a business.

You're offended by people saying luck plays a part but actually it's far more offensive to say luck doesn't.

I think “ drive” is better than ‘hard work”.

As someone who comes from a poor but incredibly hard working family of farmers. The drive for my parents was the lifestyle - working with the countryside, looking after the animals rather than money.

My successful sibling works incredibly hard but it’s the drive to make money that enables 16-18 days, 7 days a week.
I have very little drive or direction .So when I get fed up I change jobs or move away or whatever. It’s not the secret to success!

Dependa whatsiet of working class background you come from I suppose? There are the grafter families who work in low skilled jobs so have low income but put the hours in, are good at what they do and proud to work for it.- kids see that and are encouraged to work hard like their parents but patents wish for more.

There are the families that have low I come and the kids have a hard life so think "I want more than this" (why my husband states he became successful).

There are families that don't work hard and seem to get by and be happy with their lot - low aspirations for their children - kids unlikely to be successful.

I count my husband as s success story. Grew up on a council estate around low aspiration family and friends. All the trappings of people that don't change their lot but he was the first in his family to go to university and onto a PhD. He's (we) are well off and lead a very middle class life. You would never guess our upbringings (perhaps traces of regional accents are a giveaway).

I was a lesser example of this. Grew up in an upper working class / lower middle family. Everyone works,owns a 3 bed semi, no higher education qualification,doesn't aspire to more than they have. But I was encouraged to fly and I lead a noticeably different lifestyle to my family.

Obviously luck plays a part - we all take risks every day, they may be calculated if we are sensible, but they are still risks. Sometimes risks pay off, sometimes they don’t. It would only ever be pure skill and talent if you were God...

@PracticingPerson

What matters more is not 'how did this one person succeed' but 'why in Britain are so many people struggling despite hard work every day'?

This.

Also what SueEllenMishke said about luck.

There are countless people whose potential gifts to the world we will never know because they didn't have or couldn't take an opportunity - a 'lucky break', as people used to say.
And millions more doing amazing (in the actual sense of the word, not the current over-inflated one) things in the background, without the prominence or the financial rewards.

It's not a case of luck or hard graft, as many people seem to want to think.

Having parents who will you to fulfill your potential, without being pushy. Having the confidence to network, therefore a jovial personality helps. Positivity. Wanting to stand in your own two feet. Grasping every opportunity to see where that might lead.

@Guineapigbridge lots of people work hard and dont make excuses and spend their lives just scraping by. There has to be more to it than that.

We lived in a block of 3 bedroom council houses. (There were 7 of us plus 1 GP - not luxurious living!) Our neighbours were a high achieving family. Mum didn't work, dad was a local govt admin. No car. No phone.

Every one of the five children has done extremely well. Two surgeons, a GP, two high ranking lawyers. They were very disciplined. Lots of books, homework done before allowed out to play. They all had pocket money jobs from quite young - and worked throughout exams. They also seemed to be a very happy secure family.

Yes you did your research but could you have predicted a global pandemic

Of course I couldn’t predict that. But I picked an industry that I knew would never become obsolete, replaced by an app, etc it’s an industry that will never ever go anywhere because it’s based on human need. That doesn’t mean I’m oh so wise or that other industries are unwise, I just mean I thought very very carefully about my skill set and the viability of something I would invest in. Btw, the bank do give loans without houses as security for this industry as I’ve since met others who have done it. It’s a government backed loan so it’s possible to start up without a house! I had to put it on my house since government won’t back you if you already have collateral. Again- all this can be easily discovered by research if you are motivated enough.

I think the point about luck is an interesting- I think often successful people are offered an opportunity or a set of circumstances conspires to make something happen, and they jump at it. So, risk taking is very much part of that mentality. So is persistence, so if you get knocked back, keeping asking/going.

I am not a risk taker at all! Over the years though, if an opportunity to do something new comes up, I do try to take it and give it a go. This has led me to do things I thought I couldn't do. It is from a safety net of being from a financially secure family though (my grandma left school at 14 to work in the 'bakehouse' but my dad went to one of the old grammar schools which moved him in terms of job opportunity and social status).

It is also true that there are people who take risks and it doesn't pay off, or are persistent (e.g. I'm going to be an artist/musician) and it doesn't go anywhere so I don't think this is a recipe for success, but without those things you stand no chance.

I also find it intriguing why people from reasonably well off families or with solid good professional jobs then don't succeed, I have noticed that if the children are made very comfortable by their families, it does take away their drive even just to leave home, let alone push themselves to their own limits. I won't be making a nice little attic room or annex with living quarters for my kids, I shall be encouraging them to move off and up.

If you were born before 1980 you will have had more opportunity to buy your own home, better pensions, free university level education... these facilitate success (for more people)

Some families seem to be naturally highly intelligent - even working class families.

I always think back to a lady I met many years ago - she'd fled the Ukraine in WW2 (overland) to Africa, and thence to the UK (where she was reunited with her husband, who'd miraculously escaped Poland). Her four children all grew up to be very high achievers - top surgeons, GC of a tech giant etc. I think that it must be in part due to her parents having gone through so much that gave them the drive.

Whereas for me, I grew up in a life of privilege and even though I am exceptionally bright, I am poorer than my parents and have a pretty average career. Definitely not a high-achiever, and I don't work at anywhere near my full potential. I went to a pretty shit private school, where they let me get away with not working because I was still getting straight As and was the brightest in the class.

Although we all work really hard, none of my siblings or me have gone on to greatness and we are all chronically lacking in confidence.

So I think families where all the siblings are successful, it helps that they have had a work ethic modelled by adults around them, but it also comes to a confidence thing - to be successful in any career, you have to be brave (to say "fuck you" to the teacher who puts you down, to put yourself forward for a promotion that you're not qualified for, to take the extra A level, to have faith that you will succeed even if you can't see how you're going to pay the rent).

Maybe being very very rich (where the idea of not being able to pay the rent doesn't occur to you) or having been very poor (where the idea of not being able to pay the rent doesn't scare you) help you take risks that those of us bumbling along in the middle can't take.

Their mum.
Serioulsy they had a mother who was educated enough to read/talk/teach them curiosity from a young age. One that was also available enough to be there for them in the evening when they were coming back home after school. One that would support them when they struggled and encourage them.

And parents who pushed them hard
One that didn’t think that average was good enough, that expected them to do well at school. The ones that considered that getting an A just not ok if you could get and A*. (Or a B if you could an A etc...).

And, tbh, in the case of Javid, they weren’t white BRITISH. All the stats are showing that it’s those children that are doing well at school whereas white BRITISH boys are struggling.
It’s a cultural issue. As a non brit, the casual ‘oh it’s normal he can’t do x or y. He is so young. No way I’m going to push him to learn to read/count/write’ has also left me wondering.

@pigcon1 I dont think you know nearly as much about life before 1980 as you think you do. Go back to the 60s and 70s and very few people went to university at all, esp from the working classes. The "free education " of which you speak was not available to most people.

I’m well aware of that, I am also aware of the generation privilege

Like Margaret Thatcher you mean?

Well - whatever you think of her politics, she did come from a modest background and work incredibly hard

Margaret Thatcher's father owned his own small business, was involved in politics and became mayor. The family could afford to send the young Margaret to the local grammar school and then Oxford at a time when most working class girls we pulled out of school at 14 to work to support the family.

She was clever and hard working but the humble origins are only humble in the context of her party.

Which privilege? To go for free or to go at all?

Some families seem to be naturally highly intelligent - even working class families.

Interesting thread. I come from a fairly well off family. My father was very intelligent and successful. I was sent to private school and was very academic..top of the class. However, my mother died and overnight I literally stopped caring and pretty much gave up and did the bare minimum workwise. My father struggled and consequently despite my privileges, I actually had zero guidance and support so achieved nothing.

Of the high achievers I know-

One has autism and it just so happened that his special interest was maths /physics. He is phenomenally intelligent and now works for cern.

One had an abusive childhood with an alcoholic mother who openly put her second husband above her children. She is a high achiever because she too was told she would never amount to anything. She proved them very wrong and was the first in her family to graduate.

The other two high achievers I know grew up in poverty (think often cold and hungry) and have work their butts off so that they never have to live like that again. They are also both quite frugal and have both told me they are actually quite terrified of becoming destitute again.

All but one of these people are wholly state educated and the one who isn't got into private school on a full scholarship.

Jo Malone is another example - again from a humble background.

Quite often very, very successful people can come unstuck though. With success comes pressure.

It’s an unpopular fact, but academic ability is largely genetic, so we shouldn’t really be surprised when whole families end up going to Oxbridge/ top universities etc.

Beyond that, ambition, resilience and hard work.

I’m from a working class, northern, comprehensive school background and was the first in family to go to uni. DH is middle class, private school background. Our kids have gone through private school and are bright and have done well, but its their lack of drive and ambition that worries me as they’ve never had to really strive for anything.

Lol no. I set up my own business and it certainly wasn’t luck! Luck implies it just fell into their laps

No it doesn't. Luck is always an element. You can do all the research and graft, be perfectly placed to capitalise on it and something unexpected changes for better or worse. The research and hard work might increase your chances of weathering a bad patch but there is always an element of luck.

A common feature of genuinely poor children doing well is parents who strongly encourage them and have just about enough means to sustain them through education. Another common feature is the inspirational teacher during that education. Neither of those elements can be planned in or researched - we are born into good or bad circumstances as a matter of luck.