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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

High achieving families

343 replies

Coldemort · 06/10/2020 01:35

this isn't about politics disclaimer
So... I ended up down a twitter/wikipedia rabbit hole around the Javid family (most famous being Sajid, but brother Baz is also very high ranking, another brother a CEO, another a millionaire property magnate).
That family are first generation, working class. What is the family dynamic that makes them so very successful?
The Johnsons of the world, I get. When you have wealth, privalege and the best education money can buy, it makes sense you are going to be in the elite.
But what is the dynamic in working class families that produce such high achieving children? (I could reference other families, but the Javids are the one that caught my eye tonight)

OP posts:
SchrodingersImmigrant · 07/10/2020 01:08

@Totickleamockingbird

Regarding my comment on ‘British India’, I don’t think it is just borderline offensive. It is actually offensive. We never say ‘British USA’ or ‘British Australia’. How come it is ‘British India’ then? ConfusedHmm
Woth USA I would think it's because no one wants to admit it was theirs👀

Just joking. I would like to know this too as a non British this question is actually very interesting.

AmICrazyorWhat2 · 07/10/2020 01:31

My DH and his siblings are all high achievers in that they all have advanced degrees and are high earners. Two of their grandparents didn’t even finish high school in America (they were pulled out early by their parents to earn/help out at home), but they gave their children a strong work ethic and they all went to university. Same for the next generation. DH had an idyllic upbringing but doing well at school and being financially independent were expectations.

Thinking about it, their cousins are professionally successful as well. Again, no early traumas, more expectations to work hard and do well, perhaps because there’s no one to bail you out if you don’t?! I know my FIL has lent some of his children money, but he always charges interest.😂

Susannahmoody · 07/10/2020 02:12

Let's face it, living in Rochdale was probably enough of an incentive to make him work hard so he could escape -

Treatedlikeamaid · 07/10/2020 02:21

Wow over, well done to your dad. 💐

rainydayslover · 07/10/2020 02:49

My parents came to this country with nothing. Me and my brothers were brought up in a strict way. My mum didn't speak English and used to go to Parents Evenings with us and we would translate our progress to her. After every parents evening, she would tell us that we must work harder and twice as hard than English students as 1) your mother can't help you due to the language barrier (homework's etc) and 2) because we are immigrants, we are always 1-0 behind.

We worked very hard, went to uni etc and got very good professions and still working in the field. My DH also comes from a similar background, again he worked his way up and is street smart. He expected nothing from his parents and never relied on gov handouts etc. I always used to think in the UK, you are only limited to your wages but my DH is different. He finds innovative ideas to add to his business so it succeeds.

Whilst most people were on the beaches during lockdown, DH spent all his hours all day on the laptop investing into his business which is already paying off. He works very hard. When he was a uni student he did waitressing and the restaurant owner told DH that he will get his degree but will be worth nothing, apparently the owner was horrible to DH and would give him horrible shifts were he would miss the tube and get the midnight buses which took longer. My DH said he vowed that he was going to prove to all the people that ever looked down on him and comeback successful. We saw his old boss last year and DH had a chat with him and told him all about his updates and the ex bosses face was priceless :)

Goosefoot · 07/10/2020 03:58

@Totickleamockingbird

Regarding my comment on ‘British India’, I don’t think it is just borderline offensive. It is actually offensive. We never say ‘British USA’ or ‘British Australia’. How come it is ‘British India’ then? ConfusedHmm
British India refers to a specific geographical part of the Indian sub-continent.
SimonJT · 07/10/2020 06:14

@Totickleamockingbird

Regarding my comment on ‘British India’, I don’t think it is just borderline offensive. It is actually offensive. We never say ‘British USA’ or ‘British Australia’. How come it is ‘British India’ then? ConfusedHmm
I know, sad little people who are sad that Britain doesn’t have its awful empire anymore.
Noconceptofnormal · 07/10/2020 06:54

A mixture of natural intelligence and hard work. I suspect that there were several brothers maybe made them competitive with each other and spurred them on.

I think a lot of people just don't understand how hard you need to work and how many sacrifices you have to make if you want to do well. It is the working on a weekend when everyone else is chilling out and having fun.

I want my children to have a childhood but I also want them to know that if they want something it's about hard work.

Milssofadoesntreallyfit · 07/10/2020 07:13

why in Britain are so many people struggling despite hard work every day'?

There's much more to it than hard work otherwise many of those struggling wouldn't be struggling. What it is exactly, not sure, circumstance, seizing opportunity, attitude towards work and how you view it, luck, taking financial and personal risks, the list could go on really.
I know that whilst I successfully run my business, work hard etc, but I'll never be like those two who bough Asda, they started out just like me. We both work hard, yes but they have done much more than this to get where they are now.

happinessischocolate · 07/10/2020 07:13

I know of 2 families where all of the kids have gone in to be high achievers and both families encouraged the kids to be competitive with each other from a very early age.

The winner got a reward and praise and the others efforts were completely ignored, it was hard to watch when they were younger, but it certainly seemed to spur them on.

The downside is, none of the kids seemed to like each other very much and would never offer each other any help.

Gardenista · 07/10/2020 07:20

My family would fall into this, and many of our social circle too. Indian immigrants, parents qualifications not recognised, eduction is the route out of poverty. Parents manual workers, children successful professional careers.

We are not East Asian but I have observed that in that community, yes the astonishing success is recovering the status lost by the forced migration.

In my case, Parents were manual workers, children got assisted places and scholarships to independent schools, Oxbridge and professional careers, The assisted places was luck - a primary school head who told my mother her children would be eaten alive at the local comprehensive secondary and the test dates.
Luck to live near to a highly academic independent school

For me, my parents made it clear that they had made sacrifices for our education and we were to keep up our side of the bargain by working hard. We worked hard. I worked for 2 hours in a shop every day after school, plus all day Saturday to the horror of my teachers who said I needed to focus on my studies. My parents said if my grades ever went below an A then they would consider stopping the paid work but until then I could do both. I knew I would need that money for university.

It was also a dysfunctional and unhappy home and I knew from a young age that university was my ticket out - to leave and never return. There was a lot of trauma.

Parents had experienced racism and drummed it into us we would always have to work twice as hard to get anywhere , no connections or family money to rely on.

I always had a drive for self improvement, my sisters and I were known for being very clever, there was some sibling rivalry but more it pushed the younger ones, who weren’t as academically gifted on as the expectations of what was achievable had been set (which causes other problems)

GrumpyHoonMain · 07/10/2020 11:32

@Totickleamockingbird

The ‘Pakistanis’ who came to this country in the 60s and 70s came from the richest most powerful part of the old British India. I don’t think this is true. Not only a lot of these immigrants came here to do manual labour, there was no British India (what is that anyway? It is borderline offensive) in 60s or 70s. Regarding Issa brothers, Indian Gujrati families are considered to be hugely tribal and business-printed. If you have a whole network of people behind you, were born in 1971 (hence fully took advantage of the property market boom since then) and were British-born, nothing should stop you from becoming a billionaire really. This tribal nature of some communities famous for their business acumen is exactly how capitalism works: money brings in more money and then exponentially more.
British India refers to the nationality of people who were born from Afghanistan to Bangladesh up to partition. Pakistan actually was part of a region called British Punjab and was one of the wealthiest in the whole empire. In the 1960s and 70s the Indians / Pakistanis who came to the UK had British passports themselves or their grandparents’ did (you were allowed to keep british passports if you forfeited land). I know this because this is how most of my family who didn’t move to east africa post partition kept their british passports.
GrumpyHoonMain · 07/10/2020 11:35

@Totickleamockingbird

Regarding my comment on ‘British India’, I don’t think it is just borderline offensive. It is actually offensive. We never say ‘British USA’ or ‘British Australia’. How come it is ‘British India’ then? ConfusedHmm
British India refers to the British Indian empire and includes Afghanistan, Pakistan and Bangladesh. British USA/ British Australia were never used as names
sst1234 · 07/10/2020 11:50

@Totickleamockingbird

The ‘Pakistanis’ who came to this country in the 60s and 70s came from the richest most powerful part of the old British India. I don’t think this is true. Not only a lot of these immigrants came here to do manual labour, there was no British India (what is that anyway? It is borderline offensive) in 60s or 70s. Regarding Issa brothers, Indian Gujrati families are considered to be hugely tribal and business-printed. If you have a whole network of people behind you, were born in 1971 (hence fully took advantage of the property market boom since then) and were British-born, nothing should stop you from becoming a billionaire really. This tribal nature of some communities famous for their business acumen is exactly how capitalism works: money brings in more money and then exponentially more.
This is a good point. The close knit family structure of immigrants from the subcontinent definitely helps. Let’s take home ownership for instance, there is a higher proportion of home ownership within this ethnic group simple because when you want to buy your first home, it’s a given that extended family will chip and lend you money. That form of family support is invaluable, but it still holds true that first gen also had something to compare their privilege to, in order to knuckle down and make the most of the opportunities in front of them - unlike those who do not hold that perspective and always feel like the state owes them more and more, and more and more.
dottiedodah · 07/10/2020 12:24

RainyDaysLover Good for your DH! Really pisses me off when people "look down" on others .Would have loved to have seen bloody bosses face when he saw how well DH had done!

Totickleamockingbird · 07/10/2020 12:52

i know this because this is how most of my family who didn’t move to east africa post partition kept their british passports.
But if you are from a family who had the choice to move to east Africa vs Britain, you already were from a well-off background compared to what a lot of people from interior Panjab of post-partition Pakistan whi came here to manual, basic jobs.

Totickleamockingbird · 07/10/2020 12:55

British India refers to a specific geographical part of the Indian sub-continent.

No it doesn’t refer to geography. It refers to a time and that is not a good reference at all.

Totickleamockingbird · 07/10/2020 13:04

@Goosefoot
British India is a geographical reference, quite offensive now. British Indian is a reference to the passport status pre-partition, quite fine.

@GrumpyHoonMain
I really like your name and might steal it at some point. Grin

Meuniere · 07/10/2020 13:10

it still holds true that first gen also had something to compare their privilege to, in order to knuckle down and make the most of the opportunities in front of them

I’m very uneasy about that way if looking at things. As if the only reason people are successful is because they’ve ‘buckled down’. And they only do it because they want more/they are somehow envious of what other people have.

I don’t think this is what always make people successful. I think the main thing is an attitude to life and this might well not have anything to do with being poor and wanting out etc...
that’s sort of view is imo grounded in a very BRITISH way of looking at the world, one where people are trying to ‘better themselves’. This is an expression that just doesn’t exist in my mother tongue, which shows how foreign that concept is.

However, my experience is that some culture value work, determination, education in a way BRITISH (English?) people don’t.
Having lived abroad with Chinese people for example, they clearly value hard work And putting the graft in. Not just because of the reward of it but because this is how you behave iyswim.
Other countries value education etc....
I’m still gobsmacked at the attitude of some people here where going to a red brick university is seen as a negative thing because it’s too academic and ‘what in earth are you doing with something like that?’ said with great disdain....

nellyburt · 07/10/2020 13:10

A very successful owner of a premier league football club told me that successful people are motivated by need or greed.

The need to have more money/ power because they don't have enough or greed because they already have plenty of money and power but want more.

He was quite open that he was driven by greed.

nellyburt · 07/10/2020 13:12

@nellyburt

A very successful owner of a premier league football club told me that successful people are motivated by need or greed.

The need to have more money/ power because they don't have enough or greed because they already have plenty of money and power but want more.

He was quite open that he was driven by greed.

But that at first he had been driven by need.
Totickleamockingbird · 07/10/2020 13:14

@SchrodingersImmigrant
It is quite interesting, isn’t it? I think a lot of it has to do with race and how our relationship with other races, especially in Asia, has developed. It also has some relationship with time: India was a more recent colony than Australia or USA perhaps. What is quite offensive about this term though is the fact that colonial USA has been quite vocal about how and why they got rid of British occupation there. Indian subcontinent (Pakistan, India, Bangladesh...) is not yet that vocal about the occupation (huge implications of the religious divide still plague the whole area, poverty is still rampant, etc) and I think race and noise has a huge role in it. There is no way that this region has recovered yet from what happened during the occupation. It will take at least 50-100 more years. What we can do though is to keep highlighting the fact as much as we can that it was a free, unoccupied region at one point and is still suffering the consequences of the occupation and partition. The reason is we can’t change the past at all and probably no one responsible for those atrocities will ever try and pay back anyway. What it can achieve though is a valuable lesson for future so it doesn’t happen again, anywhere, in any form.

SchrodingersImmigrant · 07/10/2020 15:40

@Totickleamockingbird thank you. It is interesting!

sst1234 · 07/10/2020 16:15

@nellyburt

A very successful owner of a premier league football club told me that successful people are motivated by need or greed.

The need to have more money/ power because they don't have enough or greed because they already have plenty of money and power but want more.

He was quite open that he was driven by greed.

Isn’t that human nature summed up succinctly. It’s not wrong or bad to say what he did, in fact very true. Human beings are hardwired to accumulate. Other species hunt to feed themselves now, they don’t not accumulate. Human beings always acquire more than they need for now, they accumulate. That is be definition, greed, and perfectly normal.
AmICrazyorWhat2 · 07/10/2020 16:43

I think if you've come from a poorer background, there's probably always the fear that everything could disappear- and that might motivate you to keep accumulating?

IME, People who grew up in families where there's always been money tend to assume that they'll always have enough, they don't worry as much. Others who watched their parents struggle aren't so laid-back.

Truth is, none of us should be too laid-back nowadays, life can throw huge uncertainties into the mix...like a global pandemic!

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