To not understand why women intentionally have children with these men

[Pickagoddamnname]

A friend said this about a mutual friend. Basically mutual friend has 2 children with a man who she can’t leave them with because ‘he doesn’t know what to do on his own’. So mutual friend is always solely responsible for childcare except when she has family babysitters. My friend thinks this is unfair on mutual friend and the children and I kind of agree but it’s really not an uncommon situation. I don’t know if mutual friend suspected her DH would be like this as a father or has maybe taken over the parenting to such an extent that he lets her get on with it as I’ve only known the couple a few years.

It's not so much that there is no hint, as such that you don't have the skills to spot the hints until after gaining the knowledge of what having a child is like.

And by then it's too late.

Considering how much grief and judgment I got when I left my DD’s father at 3 months pregnant (surprise pregnancy) because I could see how useless he would be, I can understand why some women choose to stay instead and make the best of it. You get blamed as a woman either way.

Doughnut, because again, you don't know you don't know, until it's too late.

My idea of "would make a good dad" was worlds apart before and after I had kids, I would expect this is the same for most people.

I have made checklists and shared them on various threads over the years when people are asking "Should we have kids together?" but frustratingly, most people when they're getting to the point of broodiness are locked into either honeymoon mode where their partner can do no wrong or hormonal overload where their body is telling them never mind about that, just HAVE ALL THE BABIES. And if you share it any earlier than that, people aren't interested or don't think it's relevant to them.

We (society) still see the decision to have children together as a romantic decision and not a pragmatic one. It's not entirely surprising that we end up with an unsuitable co-parent.

I don't think some people realise just how helpful these threads are. I'm single with no kids and have had some awful boyfriends in the past BUT there were one or two who 'if they'd asked' I would have married in a heartbeat.

Looking back at the relationships it was BLINDINGLY obvious that those men were not boyfriend let alone father material. I conveniently ignored all the red flags, because I was in love and "nobody is perfect". But if you'd asked me at the time I would have told you they'd be amazing fathers and husbands.

Reminding women that they should be qualifying men they have kids with isn't wrong and people are too quick to trot out the "they may be abused/changed after pregnancy" excuses. I think we've also seen in other threads that family can be too hands off when it comes to highlighting issues in relationships. It's good to have a strong community around you that can call out the things you may ignore.

No man has every chatted up a woman by saying "I'm an absolute fucking roaster, couldn't mind a cheese plant, lazy as fuck - how about some kids?"

I was in 4 fairly serious relationships before I met my husband. It was pretty obvious which ones would have stepped up and been a decent father and those who wouldn’t.

I’d like to bring up the subject of gaslighting. I think psychological abuse was the reason I stayed. When I questioned behaviour it was turned around and twisted and I ended up feeling it was my fault. So not only was I putting up with the behaviour but I also felt shame and guilt about it. It’s only years later and having therapy that I understand the behaviour and it’s taken ages to feel that none of it was my fault. Reading things like “why didn’t she just leave” and “why did she have more children . . . “ are massively triggering. They are questions I ask myself all the time. But the answer to those questions was that I was being manipulated and abused. And because I had all the advantages of a middle class life I felt it couldn’t be true. I also felt that other people hadn’t noticed. It’s only now he’s gone I’ve realised EVERYONE knew.

I guess no-one really knows what sort of parent they or a partner will make until you have them, but if you or said partner appears to be a bit shite at it, don't have any more!

I havent read the whole thread so apologies if i've missed anything.

Men do not come advertised as deadbeat lazy dickheads (otherwise they'd all be single and we'd be struggling to populate the earth)
For some of us we have perfectly loving partners who you would not suspect anything amiss, then you fall pregnant (on contraception) and they are happy about it and then you have the child and they expect the woman to then do everything child related while they carry on with life as normal and don't seem to understand what the problem is. (I have done this twice!)
Unfortunately this has shaped my perception of men as dads as completely useless, including my own who was the same. People talk of these wonderful husbands who are great fathers but i've never met one.

Maybe this thread is an opportunity to share that if you do see a woman behaving like this it is a red flag. I think it would be worth keeping an eye out for any other behaviour that might indicate that she is struggling. I was really good at smiling and pretending everything was okay. It didn't mean I was. In retrospect it was awful. It's really difficult to leave when you have little children and no family support. I just think supportive and helpful questions might be the way forward. Also, just keeping an eye on the situation, in case she needs you.

Generally speaking, humans by nature fall in love and have children out of love for one another.

People hoping to have children do not clinically weigh up the pros and cons of a potential partner and only decide to reproduce with someone who on paper is the perfect husband and father.

Plenty threads at the moment on Mumsnet about mothers who regret their decision to have children. If women don’t even know how they themselves will respond to having a family, how on earth can they know how their partner will be as a parent?!

As already stated by PP, there are several reasons why women stay, and have more children. It really isn’t for anyone else to judge people’s decisions. Each and every relationship and situation is unique.

I think there's a variety of reasons, looking at my friends. Friend 1: was very broody and prepared to go it alone if need be. Partner did stick around after all and intermittently steps up which I think she sees as a bonus. As their child's getting older he is more involved.
Friend 2: had useless parents herself. Got together with a divorced older man who already had 4 kids. It was clear from the start that having children with her was a 'favour' he was doing her. So she does most of the shitwork while he carries on with his social life (and cheated on her too). Poor role-models and low self-esteem are her reasons for having children with a useless partner & staying with him. I think.
Friend 3: has a lovely partner but he's impractical and unworldly. She's very practical and efficient. He spends a lot of time with their children and is affectionate and fun. But she does all the organising and practical stuff which does her head in at times. Still, he seems to appreciate her so I think with her it's an 'on balance, he's not too bad' situation.

It doesn’t help that society as a whole is essentially pro shit dads, but also pro bashing mums who aren’t perfect.

This is the crux of it. Men get brownie points for just being present and women are NEVER given that luxury.

Most men think being decent fathers is a favour and research bears it out.

As long as society in general and women in particular continue to find sneaky ways to bash other women about it it won't change.

I do wonder if some women on their high horses believe that their OK'ish partners can't turn around one day and be a sudden and complete wanker to them one day.

Most men think being decent fathers is a favour and research bears it out.

So true.

Sadly yes to society being in general pro-shit dads . Right down to adverts where 'useless dad who makes a mess/ is clueless' is paraded for comedy value.

This is the crux of it. Men get brownie points for just being present and women are NEVER given that luxury.

Most men think being decent fathers is a favour and research bears it out.

As long as society in general and women in particular continue to find sneaky ways to bash other women about it it won't change.

I do wonder if some women on their high horses believe that their OK'ish partners can't turn around one day and be a sudden and complete wanker to them one day.

Absolutely. Or that their OK partners aren’t actually being complete wankers behind their backs! Agree with every word of the above.

I particularly hate the wide-eyed ‘I don’t understand why any woman would have more than ONE child with these men.’ It’s just not that binary. These mums may desperately want two children and want to give their child a sibling, and feel it’s unfair to deprive their existing child of a sibling simply because their father turned out to be a lazy arse.

Stop blaming women for male behaviour. Just stop it.