To not understand why women intentionally have children with these men

[Pickagoddamnname]

A friend said this about a mutual friend. Basically mutual friend has 2 children with a man who she can’t leave them with because ‘he doesn’t know what to do on his own’. So mutual friend is always solely responsible for childcare except when she has family babysitters. My friend thinks this is unfair on mutual friend and the children and I kind of agree but it’s really not an uncommon situation. I don’t know if mutual friend suspected her DH would be like this as a father or has maybe taken over the parenting to such an extent that he lets her get on with it as I’ve only known the couple a few years.

Its a way more complicated issue than just, "why did you choose to have babies with a man like this?" And I think the fact that so often people don't see that, makes the problem worse because all the issues aren't being addressed.

As a society, we still see women as the primary caregivers. Men who DO shoulder their share of the load get disproportionate amounts of praise. Women who ask their husbands to do more are often fighting not just his own resistance, but resistance of the people around them - their families, extended social group etc. A woman who resents that she has done 100% of the nights will get dozens of people saying, "ooh, but he has to work doesn't he?" or "well, at least you're not a single mother" or "well, your husband is at least good at nappy changes and taking the kids on a weekend for a few hours, mine can't even do that."

So even knowing that it's not right and that she's on her knees, it's hard for many women to really truly deeply know it because the messages she's getting all around her are that it's normal or that she has no right to complain.

And of course, on top of that, it might be that he is, in her mind, great in other ways. And she loves him, wants to be with him etc etc. Or she gets caught in a cycle of, "well, he does bring in 80% of the money so really, I can't complain" or, worse, "he brings in 80% of th money so even if this doesn't work for me, what options do I have?"

Endlessly, on a loop.

Changing things is far more complex than just saying an individual woman should somehow just KNOW that her DH was going to be shit or that when he is shit she should somehow force him to be better. Because again, that relies on the man thinking that he needs to be better. My DH is amazing. He's been a SAHD etc. But over the years he still had to be reminded surprisingly often that I wasn't the default parent. Socialisation and all the rest just meant this wasn't' instinctive to him. But because he's intelligent and fair, he listened and adapted accordingly. But not all men are able or willing to do that.

The lack of understanding about how strongly these behaviours factor in abusive situations is really quite saddening.

@ravenmum that’s really well explained although I’m sorry for your experience.

I wonder if paternity leave was longer or there wasn’t the gender pay discrepancy and men were more able to share parental leave if things would be different?

I think my point of view is skewed as I’m a nurse so when I returned to work after DC1 it was straight back on shifts with DH having to figure it out. There was no other choice. We go through stages depending on what we’re doing as to who is the main caregiver. It was me for a long time although shared when he was home but currently he’s around more than me.

I had one of those. Still have him in fact - not for much longer though. I did leave them with him occasionally but he was utterly useless so I didn't do it often as it was them who suffered. If I didn't leave explicit written instructions he wouldn't even do the basics. Think - "I didn't know I had to feed them". Yes that's the level we're talking. Yet he somehow managed a high paying, highly responsible job? and managed to be a fully functioning adult before we had children, hence why I agreed to have them with him in the first place.

As for the whole "why have more than one with him" that often gets trotted out. I wanted two kids, I knew I could manage on my own (I was doing it anyway) and I didn't want to have children with different fathers. Well it was more the fact that having been so utterly let down by him I absolutely knew I couldn't be arsed with another man for a very long time, so having another child wouldn't have been an option. My second is the most adorable child on the planet who brings me immense joy, so it was a wise choice in the circumstances.

It's so easy to blame the woman. I probably would have done it myself when I was younger and a bit of an arsehole. Luckily since finding mumsnet my default is now always to empathise with the woman and be disdainful of the man. 9.999 times out of ten that disdain is justified.

@BumbleFlump

They’re not incapable of looking after their kids, they just don’t want to. Lazy, abusive arses

This and a previous post about not being pushed or allowed to do it.

Back in the day when I was childless and had zero experience looking after babies or children I was asked to look after other people’s children’s. Lots of different versions of looking after. I couldn’t get the baby or toddler to take medicine as well as the parents and things like that. But managed to get through the day without a safeguarding issue. I would say that most average people over the age of 18 can look after a baby or a child without incident.

For someone not to leave their child with the father then they know there is a safeguarding issue. Otherwise it’s a case of he won’t or she doesn’t let him. Possibly a bit of both.

@SBTLove, for your kid to have a sibling with the same parents, as it won't make much difference at that point if they are stuck looking after one kid or two. I don't know, not in that situation. Perhaps they don't feel it warrants dumping the partner if they aren't actually abusive.

Due to age a lot of women have babies back to back and so they don’t realise how ribbish their partner is at first. My friend has 3 under 5 and while I saw a few red flags after baby 2, it’s with baby 3 that he’s shown himself to be completely useless - actually worse than useless. Basically her mum is her coparent because he does not lift a finger and says he’s too busy working to support them all to care for his own children. If he takes one child out on his own he acts like he’s Dad of the Decade.

I know another mum of theee who works full time yet I’ve never ever seen her DH at any weekend sport for their DCs, he needs that time to rest apparently

If you have a 1 year old then get pregnant I can see imagining that your partner will step up for toddler/preschool age and above once baby is less dependent on mum. But that doesn’t always happen.

I also totally get the having a second child even if he isn’t the worlds most amazing dad. I wanted mine to have siblings and wanted a small-ish age gap for my DC’s benefit. I

I also don’t understand the constant accusations of blame when all people are trying to do is explain.

[quote Pickagoddamnname]@ravenmum that’s really well explained although I’m sorry for your experience.

I wonder if paternity leave was longer or there wasn’t the gender pay discrepancy and men were more able to share parental leave if things would be different?

I think my point of view is skewed as I’m a nurse so when I returned to work after DC1 it was straight back on shifts with DH having to figure it out. There was no other choice. We go through stages depending on what we’re doing as to who is the main caregiver. It was me for a long time although shared when he was home but currently he’s around more than me.[/quote]
In our case it was the pay difference, and a few other circumstances.
But also the fact that society was not surprised that I did more work.
I hope that if my dd is in the same position I might be able to give her some useful advice on what to watch out for! :)

It baffles me. I get that no one knows exactly how they will parent until they have children.... but some of these men seem to struggle to tie their own shoelaces so why their wives think they will be anything but a useless dad is beyond me. And so many women just seem to accept it as their lot in life. It’s really depressing.

@Stripesnomore

Huge numbers of people get divorced, and formerly great dads abandon their kids in favour of a new family.

So even if this woman’s original husband was a useless father, maybe the poor kids will get a good dad in the great divorce reshuffle probably heading their way.

Yes, let's be honest, there's a cohort of men who will only parent children whose mother they're in a sexual relationship with. It's a choice not an inability, so by definition the mother doesn't know this is going to happen until the relationship ends. Unless he's done it before of course, but they all start somewhere.

What sort of man fathers children he is incapable of looking after?

Yeah, but nobody should be rewarding these dolts with sex and companionship so it again comes down to the women making bad decisions

I have seen it before though where women are unwilling to let the father try - nothing is ever quite to their standards. Usually from a place of anxiety and worry, but it hampers the fathers and after a while they withdraw.

This is definitely a thing too. You have to be willing to let him do things differently and/or get things wrong.

@SBTLove

I think I question more that after one child and seeing how useless he is they then keep having more kids.

I had one child with exH, would have liked more but absolutely not with him!

I’m remarried and have a lovely husband who I’m having my second child with (in addition to first child).

He’s a wonderful father and husband.

People quite rightly highlight the arrogance of men, but I believe there is a complementary arrogance in some women who believe that they - and they alone - are the ones to "redeem" the parade of total tossers that we hear about hourly on these forums.

And if that isn't the case, it would be illuminating to imagine a world where it was the case. A world that I suspect would look no different to this world.

Sadly it's a lock and key situation as it seems slimebag losers seem to know exactly how to trigger the "Oh, but he's changed" reaction in some women.

"Hingeandbracket

It's not as easy as "this dad is crap, better try a different one" though is it?"

It reminds me of a friend who was a teacher and said the kids kept changing their surnames. Reportedly, when one said "Miss, I'm not not Dan Smith anymore I'm Dan Jones" a voice piped up from the back saying "We had him, and he's crap"

Oh god, another 'blaming women for male behaviour' thread.

Who needs incels with this level of internalised misogyny.

I think it's mostly to do with her own childhood and parents. Though not necessarily that she is copying it, could be her mother was lazy and everything left to her DF, so she unwittingly is determined not to repeat this. Or perhaps her DF was a waste of space so that is what she expects of men. I think this is the main influence.

No man has every chatted up a woman by saying "I'm an absolute fucking roaster, couldn't mind a cheese plant, lazy as fuck - how about some kids?

I did once see a personal ad (remember those!?) which said, ' Fat balding miserable git seeks leggy beautiful blonde ONO'

Oh god, another 'blaming women for male behaviour' thread.
Who needs incels with this level of internalised misogyny

Absolutely this.

People quite rightly highlight the arrogance of men, but I believe there is a complementary arrogance in some women who believe that they - and they alone - are the ones to "redeem" the parade of total tossers that we hear about hourly on these forums

Yeah, I've never seen a man thinking that they can 'redeem' a woman they are in a relationship with.
Why is this? Maybe because girls and women are brought up to believe they should put others needs before their own, but men never are. You see inspirational messages to girls about how they should strive to be kind rather than pretty, as if this is a progressive, empowering message for our daughters. I saw a thread the other day (not on here) about disruptive and even violent boys being sat next to girls at school, so that the girls would be a modifying influence, literally teaching girls it is their job to control male behaviour. So of course there are women growing up to think they can ' fix' men, not because of arrogance, but because they have been bombarded with the message of feeling sorry for shit arse men and feeling that it is their job to be 'kind' to them and 'fix' them, since they could understand language. Not to mention we are told to ' work' at relationships.

@dworky

Oh god, another 'blaming women for male behaviour' thread. Who needs incels with this level of internalised misogyny.

No the OP is not blaming women for men's behaviour. She is stating that the men are crap - so why do women have DC - usually more than 1 - with them and continue to do it all. It is only if women as a group demand more of men that men will change. As long as there are women willing to tolerate being a sole parent, even when living full time with the male partner, there is no incentive for men to change.

And no NAMALT but christ, reading the boards on here, most seem to be.

@annasgirl, but what you have said that is very explicitly blaming women for men's behaviour. You absolutely explicitly say that individual women are responsible for incentivising men to change.

I agree with you OP, personally I took 8 years (incl. 6 years of living together) to decide that I could commit to having a child with DP. However, other people can be different - contraception accidents, perhaps others aren't as cautious, perhaps they feel very broody. All adding up to selecting a mate who turns out to be lazy or worse!