To not understand why women intentionally have children with these men

[Pickagoddamnname]

A friend said this about a mutual friend. Basically mutual friend has 2 children with a man who she can’t leave them with because ‘he doesn’t know what to do on his own’. So mutual friend is always solely responsible for childcare except when she has family babysitters. My friend thinks this is unfair on mutual friend and the children and I kind of agree but it’s really not an uncommon situation. I don’t know if mutual friend suspected her DH would be like this as a father or has maybe taken over the parenting to such an extent that he lets her get on with it as I’ve only known the couple a few years.

I am always baffled by women that have children with men that are proven to be rubbish fathers.
I knew someone that had 2 children with a chap who already had a daughter, he was never that interested in his eldest and did the bare minimum. Why would have another 2 children change that, he didn't change. She admitted she had children for her, which is hugely selffish.

@ravenmum

your expectations are already skewed to start with This, too - even if you know that you want a more involved parent, you still don't know how high your expectations could be.

Absolutely. DH and I are the most equal couple I know but this still looks probably like 55-45 if I'm really honest about it. We did shared parental leave (though I took six months and he took three), we both now work four days a week and have one day a week at home with our toddler. But I find myself all the time thinking that he's so great or I'm so lucky, when actually all he's doing is his fair share. I also wasn't prepared for how much pushback we'd get from other people - I don't mind the comments about him being henpecked or whatever (I think they're laughable) but if I'm honest the widespread assumption that I'm a crap mum does hurt sometimes. I got so much flack for going back to work at six months, and people made it very clear that it didn't 'count' that DS would still be with a parent because it wasn't me. I was asked if I was upset that I had to 'give up' my maternity leave to DH. I've been told, repeatedly, what a shame it is that I have to work 'so much' and asked why I don't work three days and DH full time? Nearly all of this, by the way, is from other women. I had no idea how much resistance we would get to trying to split things equally - or how much other people would interpret that as 'dad does basically everything' - and it has been harder than I thought it would be. We're expecting our second and I've noticed that's the point where equality seems to break down for a lot of couples; I think and hope it won't for us but I do think it takes constant work not to, because the societal pressure is such that it's so easy just to 'drift' into 'mum as main carer'.

@Sitt

I don’t understand why people continually post these threads, knowing that they are intentionally blaming women for men’s behaviour

Because some women live to blame other women and need to do so to an audience. Anybody with a functioning brain cell or the slightest empathy would realise that there are reasons within reasons. Examples of this could include:

• Realisation dawns late, woman tries to keep family intact;
• Useless father promises to improve, woman gives chances to effect that for the sake of keeping family intact;
• Biological clock ticking and 'devil you know' kicks in. Once you have a child with a less than perfect man, what's to stop next man being less than perfect or worse?
• Wanting siblings to share same father. I can distinctly remember the female arseholes who slated Ullrika Johnson for her 4x4 family.
• Women hedging fertility bets; they want a child and choice is limited to have a child with somebody they at least know/have a semblance of relationship with, rather than a sperm donor.

I'm not aware of any women who actually think that they are bad mothers other than saying so in the gentlest terms, certain that they will receive the validation they're craving. Women also bring up men so on that basis, there must be a fair few who are actually not doing their jobs properly. I would include fathers in this but for the purposes of this thread, it's mostly women being vile so that's where my focus is. Do.Your.Job.Properly.Then. Stop allowing your boys to be feckless and helpless.

I really do wish karma existed and slapped some of the smug twats who a) post threads like this and b) back up the smug twats. They most certainly deserve a dose.

Not cast iron... but if a man, particularly an interesting one with lots of hobbies/interests, isn't at least just a little bit apprehensive about having kids (ie "bye-bye freedom") that ought to set off a warning alarm. 90% of the time the reason they're not apprehensive is because they expect the woman to do the lions share of the boring work/Everything.

@Rightthen24
We all have kids for ourselves - bringing our lives more interest/meaning plus (usually) replicating our DNA

Because some women live to blame other women and need to do so to an audience.

Women also bring up men so on that basis, there must be a fair few who are actually not doing their jobs properly. I would include fathers in this but for the purposes of this thread, it's mostly women being vile so that's where my focus is. Do.Your.Job.Properly.Then. Stop allowing your boys to be feckless and helpless.

This pivot from 'women should stop blaming other women' to 'it's all women's fault for bringing up crap boys' in this post is a bit of a plot twist!

a) because men don't tend to advertise the fact that they expect their partner to be a domestic skivvy in the courting phase. My ex DH couldn't have been kinder or more loving and considerate to me when we were dating, in the early days of our marriage and through my pregnancy. After our DD was born it was as if a light had been switched off.
b) because most women consciously or subconsciously think its "their" job at some level. Many would prefer to do it themselves than nag a man to do it so they will do it in resentful silence.
c) because a lot of women are financially trapped after they have had a kid and its very difficult to get out.

I've yet to meet a woman who set unrealistically high standards for her partner -- I've heard about these mythical creatures on MN but most of my friends are just bloody grateful if their menfolk step up.

Social conditioning - a woman "must" have a man AND have kids with him. Having kids with any loser or drunk is still more respectable than single and childless.

Because a person's desire to have children, which is hormonally driven, can be so great as to trump all common sense. Especially when it's a person with not much common sense. It's the same reason why men are unfaithful. Mother Nature is a very powerful force.

@Gancanny

There are lots of reasons and it depends on the individual family but some of them include:

• may as well stay with a useless man and have the children you want than leave and face the uncertain of finding a new partner, settling down together, planning a family, then the hassle of access/shared custody, maintenance, blended family, etc

• lack of opportunities and options, sometimes its better the devil you know

• finances, far harder to manage on one wage and/or benefits

• housing, as above

• domestic abuse, not every woman has freedom over her reproductive choices and abuse by its nature is secretive so you don't necessarily know which of your friend/family members is being abused

• worry about leaving the children with useless dad during access weekends

• not viewing laziness as a deal breaker, despite grumbling about it

• a view that its better for the children to have two parents who are living together than a 'broken home

• the stigma attached to being a single mother, a stigma which increases if the children are from more than one father

There are other reasons but these are the main ones I can think of right now.

Brilliant and well thought out post.

It's not always as easy as 'LTB'

I had a child with an inappropriate man (with his blessing) fully expecting to raise that child alone, which I have done. Never regretted it, never expected anything different. I did not have the choice of a good father figure and time had run out. It was that or the sperm bank and I made an informed decision.

@Gancanny

There are lots of reasons and it depends on the individual family but some of them include:

• may as well stay with a useless man and have the children you want than leave and face the uncertain of finding a new partner, settling down together, planning a family, then the hassle of access/shared custody, maintenance, blended family, etc

• lack of opportunities and options, sometimes its better the devil you know

• finances, far harder to manage on one wage and/or benefits

• housing, as above

• domestic abuse, not every woman has freedom over her reproductive choices and abuse by its nature is secretive so you don't necessarily know which of your friend/family members is being abused

• worry about leaving the children with useless dad during access weekends

• not viewing laziness as a deal breaker, despite grumbling about it

• a view that its better for the children to have two parents who are living together than a 'broken home

• the stigma attached to being a single mother, a stigma which increases if the children are from more than one father

There are other reasons but these are the main ones I can think of right now.

This summarises it perfectly.

Amazed it has to be spelt out for some people, tbh.

[quote neversayalways]@annasgirl, but what you have said that is very explicitly blaming women for men's behaviour. You absolutely explicitly say that individual women are responsible for incentivising men to change.[/quote]
Noiamsaying that all women need to support each other to say no to all of these men. The patriarchy has succeeded because women have been pitted against each other. Whereas if we work together we can achieve our own liberation. I think also there are many reasons why women have children with these men, and many have been cited on here. The issue arises when women come here and complain and expect it to change without seeing that it will only change if ALL women say no to these men. Kind of the way unions worked in the olden days.

@neversayalways and perhaps I am a bit sensitive on this topic as my own father was one of these men but societal expectations kept my mother with him, despite her earning her own money and raising us without any input from him. The law also supported him at the time as she had no rights to the marital home so she would have been homeless. And no, she did not know she was marrying a useless man - he was sold to her as a charming wonderful pillar of the community by her trusted friends..... as you can see I am still bitter.

I am always baffled by women that have children with men that are proven to be rubbish fathers.

Most of the time it's because they've only had his side of the story.

"My ex was a right lazy cow, I was at work all day grafting 8am til 7pm and she expected me to start doing housework when I got home..."

"My ex is a right psycho, wouldn't ever let me help me with the kids so then when we split up they wouldn't come visit with me because they weren't used to being alone with me..."

"My ex is a right bitch, I love those kids and she stops me from seeing them..."

"My ex is a right greedy witch, all she's bothered about is maintenance..."

And alongside all of this Jackanory-for-Dickheads the new girlfriend is fed lines like:

"I was lost until I found you..."

"She left me so broken and you've healed me..."

"I'm happier with you than I ever was with her..."

So the new girlfriend goes on believing that the ex was the problem, the useless man was the wronged party, and that she brings out the best in him. He of course will be on best behaviour until he has his feet well and truly lodged under the table then the cycle of uselessness will begin again.

A lesson I have learned in my 40 years - you can learn a hell of a lot about a man in how he speaks about his ex partners. One "psycho"? Meh, it happens. Several "psychos"? Almost certain that the problem isn't the women. And if the "psycho ex" is the mother of his child(ren)? It either means he was/is a dickhead and you should run or you'll be dealing with his shit for years, or she actually is an awful person in which case you should also run because if they have a child you will be dealing with her shit for years to come.

I can understand why people have children with these men, for reasons like ones PP have mentioned. What I don't understand is why they don't accurately describe the problem. Unless her partner has a relevant disability ( and I assume not since you would probably have mentioned it), the problem is not that he doesn't know what to do. The problem is he can't be arsed to find out what to do and/or actually do it.

@Inkpaperstars

I can understand why people have children with these men, for reasons like ones PP have mentioned. What I don't understand is why they don't accurately describe the problem. Unless her partner has a relevant disability ( and I assume not since you would probably have mentioned it), the problem is not that he doesn't know what to do. The problem is he can't be arsed to find out what to do and/or actually do it.

That could be years of gaslighting though to be fair.

A lot of pain and misery could be prevented if women chose more suitable partners to reproduce with. I think they must get blinded by baby fever and can’t think straight!

A lot of pain and misery could be prevented if women chose more suitable partners to reproduce with. I think they must get blinded by baby fever and can’t think straight!

A lot of pain and misery could be prevented if we as a society made it a lot more difficult to be a feckless man and held men up to the same accountability as we do women, if a woman walks out on her DC and then has minimal contact alongside minimal maintenance people are still scandalised by it yet when men do it that's just life. There should be strict rules around payment of child maintenance with clear trigger points and enforced penalties for non-payment, destigmatise single parenthood and provide proper support to enable single parents to remain in work, funding to refuges and domestic abuse services should be increased, sex education should emphasise that preventing pregnancy works both ways and boys/men shouldn't be relying on their partner to prevent pregnancy when condoms exist, education around relationships should focus on self-worth and self-respect alongside knowing the signs of a positive relationship vs a negative one.

I think people can sometimes feel frustrated for a friend who has a waste of space as a partner. My sister in law has a really well paid Job. Her husband's £40,000 job is just extra money. They have the massive home and all the trimmings. They decided when she was 34 and he was 44 to have a baby through IVF after two years of trying. They have an almost 6 year old now. The husband was all excited and ready to become a dad. He actually left his first wife because she didn't want children. But he's turned out to be a useless dad. In the pub every night. Never did the nappies. Never bonded with her. Never took care of her. He was furloughed in the summer and his wife had to send her child to a childminder I'm lockdown because he couldn't care for her himself. He literally is a lazy piece of work. I often feel frustrated for his wife. But I can only guess she didn't know he was going to be this selfish beforehand. Infact he was going to be a stay at home dad for a couple of years and sulked and got a job because he changed his mind.

I wish she would leave him because he's like a giant man child.

I think sometimes we let them get away with too much as well.

It's like when one partner does the cooking because the other is a rubbish cook. Sorry but they might not be an amazing chef, but there's no reason whatsoever they can't learn to make a pasta bake, or do a jacket potato and salad. There are meals they COULD make, but we just take over because it's easier and less fuss.

If they're rubbish at something, or at least act like they are, it's as if they know we'll take over and never ask them to do it again.

I genuinely believe they're quite clever about it sometimes.

So, they get up with the baby, give them the wrong feed, don't put the nappy on properly - we stop asking them to do it. They win.

True pepsi, I didn't think of that but it could well be

I’m 50/50 on this as I know some women like this who want to control 100% of their children’s lives and want to ‘do it all’, using the excuse ‘he’s useless’ just because he puts different clothes on them or feeds them food she might not.

I don't think anyone has children with a man they reckon will be a useless father.

I sometimes think some women bring it on themselves though - not in an offensive way - I am often one of those women!

My husband is a great dad and is more than capable of doing everything for our kids. However, he gets away with at least 80% of it because of me...

1 - its usually quicker and easier to do it myself
2 - if I do it myself I know its done to my standards
3 - over the top mum anxiety (pretty much my own peace of mind!)

I always allow him to get away with the minimum effort for ages and then ill get irrationally annoyed and kick off, when much of it is my own doing

Its like the kids breakfast for example. I dont remember the last time DH did this. Even on a weekend. But I'm the idiot who gets up each day and does it before he does so who's fault is it really?!

Note to self...I must start nagging DH again

@Gancanny

A lot of pain and misery could be prevented if women chose more suitable partners to reproduce with. I think they must get blinded by baby fever and can’t think straight!

A lot of pain and misery could be prevented if we as a society made it a lot more difficult to be a feckless man and held men up to the same accountability as we do women, if a woman walks out on her DC and then has minimal contact alongside minimal maintenance people are still scandalised by it yet when men do it that's just life. There should be strict rules around payment of child maintenance with clear trigger points and enforced penalties for non-payment, destigmatise single parenthood and provide proper support to enable single parents to remain in work, funding to refuges and domestic abuse services should be increased, sex education should emphasise that preventing pregnancy works both ways and boys/men shouldn't be relying on their partner to prevent pregnancy when condoms exist, education around relationships should focus on self-worth and self-respect alongside knowing the signs of a positive relationship vs a negative one.

Absolutely. Gancanny's posts really hit the nail on the head.