If you are really posh...

[quickque]

How do you view people that aren't?

A genuine question. I can't help but feel as if some of my husbands friends / colleagues think that he's married 'down'....

Maybe a generalisation but I mostly get this impression from his female friends.

I'm not really posh but would be from a kind of middle class family and I do think it could be your insecurity or not. I have a rich friend that was bullied in work by someone who didn't see her as the same class (she was extremely rich) but in the same way I'm middle class and my sil used to make comments about people from my area etc, when I'd never even though about it (they came from a poor area)

A landed, Eton aquaintance is one of the least judgemental people I know. In his position he deals with everyone from Royalty to farm hands and builders. No room for acting 'posh' though superficially you would definitely go for the stereotype. If you're self concious around poshos it's your problem. By the way, we get on well even though I spent most of my childhood in a council house.

Loads of comments on how judgemental (or not) ‘posh’ people are - but none on how much in 2020 many posh people dislike and try to avoid being judged themselves.

It’s not a word I’d use to describe myself but like numerous others in this post, it’s a lazy label I get stuck with quite often. 100 years ago, yes it would do you favours but in today’s workplaces (depending on the sector) and society quite often it go against rather than for you & you are the butt of jokes and a lot of assumptions about your opinions and attitudes. This isn’t a ‘poor me’ comment - I had a very comfortable upbringing and expensive schooling. But being posh in 2020 is something a lot of us are a bit embarrassed about and try to downplay as much as possible. For me anyway, my experience has been that more people have been bothered by me being ‘posh’ than I have in the least about what their backgrounds are.

@DaddyCool60

A landed, Eton aquaintance is one of the least judgemental people I know. In his position he deals with everyone from Royalty to farm hands and builders. No room for acting 'posh' though superficially you would definitely go for the stereotype. If you're self concious around poshos it's your problem. By the way, we get on well even though I spent most of my childhood in a council house.

But as lots of us have said, this is not because he doesn't 'see class', it's because his forms of judgement are interior and subtle, not overt, and are not at all at odds with treating acquaintances and people he meets through work in a perfectly pleasant and friendly manner.

I think some people on this thread base their ideas about the 'genuinely posh' on Brideshead Revisited and stuff by Julian Fellowes.

This thread has been so fascinating. Thank you for all the replies and thoughts.

I find it incredible weird that so many people think all posh people are the most down to earth and less judgmental- I truly think they are just better at hiding it / know how to behave better. If you are part of a group and the only one who isn't posh, there is (ime) a PLU attitude and if you spend enough time with them, it seeps out.

I'm also shocked at how many dislike new money and assume that they are more snobby. They are probably just less well versed in hiding it. And tbh if you work hard, better yourself and do really well then I think buy what you bloody like and enjoy it!

If you mean nouveau riche, they will look down on you for not having the latest numberplate. If you mean old money/aristocracy, they're usually in such a muddle they wouldn't notice. And if they did, they would never let you know it.

‘it's because his forms of judgement are interior and subtle, not overt,’

Sorry but IMO what a load of cobblers. You don’t know this man, I don’t either. He’s an individual not a class. Who’s to say he has any interest in judging anyone and these thought processes are innate.

@SJaneS48 that is very true. I'm constantly judged on nothing but my accent. It's as if that's all it takes to sum up who I am. And yet for anyone to do that for a "common" accent would be viewed as snobby and discriminatory. Unsurprising that one ends up hiding away from this judgement (and it is constant, like colleagues assuming I own a horse and have a house in france?! ) with people from a similar background, amongst whom I'm judged for my actions.

‘ find it incredible weird that so many people think all posh people are the most down to earth and less judgmental- I truly think they are just better at hiding it / know how to behave better. If you are part of a group and the only one who isn't posh, there is (ime) a PLU attitude and if you spend enough time with them, it seeps out.’

Quite honestly @quickque, without wishing to be harsh it’s starting to sound to be like the judgemental one is you here and you might be assuming they have a problem with you they just don’t actually have. The above reads a bit chippy with the seeping out comment.

I'm not but know lots.
I would say that they are lovely people who mix well with anyone, very polite etc but when push comes to shove they don't see, for example, systemic racism or inequality, and have an entrenched sense of entitlement to their status as if they've earned it and that it is someone's fault if they're poor.
They just can't see that people are born with different life chances, don't get the poverty trap etc, they can't wrap their heads around it.
Most have never stepped foot in a state school.

Obv i am only talking about the ones i know but having met their friends it seems pretty accurate.
They prop up the captalist system because it serves them!

In terms of how they see us i know i amused them with my Corbyn vote!

Hi @SJaneS48 I meant no offence, I don't know you - I can only judge the people I know.

'Jokes' about state schools - not buying a puppy because it's breeder lived in a terrace house etc are to me, are their real attitudes 'seeping' through

Sorry @KaliforniaDreamz but I have a real ? about generalisations of posh people not seeing issues with either poverty or racial inequality. The most conservative people I’ve known have been people with working class backgrounds. The demographic of the typical UKIP or Britain First supporter isn’t exactly landed gentry! I voted Corbyn and campaigned locally for Labour - the one other local person who did campaign (in fact did most of it) is a lovely lady in her late 60’s who spent her life working for the NHS. She let slip one day that her FIL was still going into the House of Lords in his 90’s. Didn’t surprise me at all. I know ‘posh’ people who (if they reveal at all) vote across the spectrum - no more inclined or disinclined to see issues of race or wealth inequality than any other. You don’t need to have experienced poverty to understand what a big issue it is - take Tony Benn for example.

@quickque - I would agree that sometimes people are not thoughtful about what they say. Christmas at ours can be difficult. My parents are very comfortably off and from a very different background to my MIL & her husband. My MIL & DHs stepdad are living in a tiny council flat and need to borrow money from us from time to time. When my parents talk about their travels, house extensions, second property issues etc I feel bloody awful. They don’t mean to rub their privilege in the in-laws faces but it is unintentionally very insensitive. Perhaps some of what you are experiencing is unintentional too? But not buying a puppy from a terrace - what??!!

I once knew someone who went to a fairly prestigious public school in the south west of England. He looked down on people who went to less prestigious independent schools, never mind state schools.

@Sundries

proper posh, who are genuinely interested and accepting of people from a different background

It really is ridiculous that people actually think this, and the alternation of forelock-tugging towards the so-called 'proper posh' and disdain towards the rude, grabby, materialistic nouveaux is incredibly reactionary.

I can only conclude that class deference towards the aristocracy is so thoroughly engrained within the UK population, that people need to justify it to themselves by convincing themselves that all 'proper' aristocrats are doghair-covered, bump about in elderly rattletraps, and are faultlessly charming to the lower orders.

Thinking that the upper classes 'don't see class' is about as self-deluding as thinking you 'don't see race'.

This is exactly what I was trying to say upthread but you have expressed it much more eloquently than I did. I usually get the sense that Mumsnet users are thoughtful, worldly, forward-thinking “modern gals” — I am shocked at how many still buy into the old chestnut that “proper posh” people are humble and kind while “new money” folks must be ostentatious and lack breeding. Often the posters back up their statements with stories of one or two posh people they know who are paragons of grace and virtue and would never dream of carrying a designer handbag. I guess it goes to show how deeply hardwired these attitudes are, even among those of us who are otherwise modern and self-aware. We must respect the truly posh so we tell ourselves they are all good and deserving of their status. We save our schadenfreude for the self-made.

How are we still repeating these stereotypes in 2020??

@ParrotheadRedux

Agree with everything you say

SJaneS48 i can only speak about my lived experience.
That said some of their offspring are turning out rather left wing....

Will and Kate solid??

There’s the best example- he can marry down but she has to still know her place and look away when required to do so.

@ParrotheadRedux yupp, exactly.
Or @Sundries yes exactly
Im Irish and I see this. It seems to be hard for most British people to acknowledge. Strange. Because it is so obvious. They can be so friendly and charming but keep all but their own at a distance.

Wise yes I concur!

@AngelicaElizaAndPeggy I agree!
I also now have Schuyler sister song in my head.

I used to work with proper posh people. All Eton, the Guards, hunting shooting and fishing types. They were absolutely charming and couldn’t have been nicer to me, a nice middle class privately educated suburban girl but I was quite clearly not one of them and never would be. They absolutely saw class and I was fine to work with but clearly wasn’t ever going to be welcomed into their environment and would always be kept at polite arms length

@SJaneS48

Sorry *@KaliforniaDreamz* but I have a real ? about generalisations of posh people not seeing issues with either poverty or racial inequality. The most conservative people I’ve known have been people with working class backgrounds. The demographic of the typical UKIP or Britain First supporter isn’t exactly landed gentry! I voted Corbyn and campaigned locally for Labour - the one other local person who did campaign (in fact did most of it) is a lovely lady in her late 60’s who spent her life working for the NHS. She let slip one day that her FIL was still going into the House of Lords in his 90’s. Didn’t surprise me at all. I know ‘posh’ people who (if they reveal at all) vote across the spectrum - no more inclined or disinclined to see issues of race or wealth inequality than any other. You don’t need to have experienced poverty to understand what a big issue it is - take Tony Benn for example.

@quickque - I would agree that sometimes people are not thoughtful about what they say. Christmas at ours can be difficult. My parents are very comfortably off and from a very different background to my MIL & her husband. My MIL & DHs stepdad are living in a tiny council flat and need to borrow money from us from time to time. When my parents talk about their travels, house extensions, second property issues etc I feel bloody awful. They don’t mean to rub their privilege in the in-laws faces but it is unintentionally very insensitive. Perhaps some of what you are experiencing is unintentional too? But not buying a puppy from a terrace - what??!!

How on earth did you end up with someone from such a different background?

@SJaneS48

‘it's because his forms of judgement are interior and subtle, not overt,’

Sorry but IMO what a load of cobblers. You don’t know this man, I don’t either. He’s an individual not a class. Who’s to say he has any interest in judging anyone and these thought processes are innate.

I think they are, if not innate, at least thoroughly ingrained. And I’m not suggesting anywhere that a member of the upper classes necessarily attaches a negative connotation to this ingrained noticing of social class, just that they invariably register it.

My point was only that some people on the thread seem to assume that the ‘posh’ must not register class difference because they are not behaving in an obviously disdainful way/shrieking about their polo ponies/ insisting on being addressed by their title/hunting side-saddle/ dog walking in vintage Schiaparelli etc — and that registering class difference can go alongside someone being perfectly cordial, a nice neighbour, a generous employer etc.

But being posh in 2020 is something a lot of us are a bit embarrassed about and try to downplay as much as possible

yes, no doubt about that, SJane, part of the whole current tendency in the world for egalitarianism and merit-based success, same as gender / racial equality. RF has never been less popular (apart from the Queen, still admired/loved by many).
Modern women don't want a posh DH as who can be bothered with fitting into archaic rules / lack of freedom / putting up with his friends keeping you at arm's length as a poster above said (despite being perfectly nice superficially).
Posh people now either live in their bubbles(those who still are snobs) , or they are like SJane - nice people, don't care about backgrounds but are somewhat embarrassed (and hide even) their own. There is no thriving like before, no being automatically sought-after and having queues of aspiring spouses from middle classes after them! Tis a changing world, some are actually very nervous about their future.

Agree with pp, the older guard always notices class, nice ones would never let you think this, most some would subtly but VERY clearly put you in your place.
But it's similar with the new money - there are arrogant bullies/brats, but others try to spread it and be generous instead.

@BubblyBarbara

Genuinely upper class people can be actually quite humble and generous. It's the upper middle class you have to watch out for as they seem to think they've got it made, people like headteachers, accountants and people who have degrees and big pensions.

Head teachers and Accountants are upper middle class?