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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that one cannot be both a Catholic and a Feminist?

418 replies

applesauce1 · 03/10/2020 23:09

Inspired by another thread on here, my husband and I had a lively debate about this earlier. I think that a Catholic person cannot also be a Feminist for many reasons, but among these reasons, that an anti-abortion stance is an anti-woman stance.
My husband thinks that a Catholic could be pro-choice and therefore be a feminist, or that a feminist might also disagree with abortion.
He is a cultural Catholic (now atheist), and probably took this stance because he'd like to think that his mum is a feminist. In the end, we agreed to disagree. I think it is a black and white issue and he would like to think there are grey areas.
Do you think there's a way that someone can be a Catholic and also a feminist?

OP posts:
HarryleQuebecois · 04/10/2020 02:05

I was raised Catholic. I suppose I still am, even if I don’t believe in all the teachings. It’s not something you can ever really shake off, is it? I am definitely a feminist. I am pro-choice but that doesn’t mean I am pro-abortion. I do understand people’s objections to abortion. I’ve had one myself and I could never do it again especially now that I have children, because I know what those little fertilised eggs turn into, if given the chance. So I know why people get so distressed by the idea of it. The difference is that I would never try to stop a woman from having one. So yes I think it’s possible to be a feminist and a Catholic who is opposed to abortion but wouldn’t try to impose their views on anybody else.

Sarahpaula · 04/10/2020 02:09

@maras2 how can you be feminist and be a Catholic. If it were a job that only hired men in the top roles, what would you say?

DioneTheDiabolist · 04/10/2020 02:10

But it is known and implied everywhere that women are inferior in the Catholic church.
No it isn't. You may have inferred that @Sarahpaula, but it is well known and taught that women are equal, but superior different to men and are the cornerstone of the faith.

raddledoldmisanthropist · 04/10/2020 02:25

Catholicism and feminism are ultimately incompatible ideologies / belief systems

Presumably you think that about Islam, Judaism and Evangelicalism which are all more patriarchal than Catholicism? That's several billion people who apparently all think women are inferior and are not allowed to be feminists.

how can you be feminist and be a Catholic. If it were a job that only hired men in the top roles, what would you say?

Jobs in the Catholic church are open to women. The (rough equivalent of) the Vatican foreign minister is a woman. The priesthood isn't a job.

That's not for a minute to argue that the RC heirachy isn't deeply sexist, but there are 1.2 billion Roman Catholics. It's as silly to think they all have the same opinions as it is to think that all Asians think the same.

maras2 · 04/10/2020 02:28

sarahpaula
Probably let them get on with it.
Dogma is dogma.
Doesn't make me any less of a feminist.

blueberrypie0112 · 04/10/2020 02:32

Can they? Georgetown (Washington D.C.) is very catholic, and they used to refuse to prescribe birth control for her.

Sarahpaula · 04/10/2020 02:36

@DioneTheDiabolist so why are there no women popes, women bishops or women priests? Why do women never give mass? Or listen to confession?

Sorberret · 04/10/2020 02:38

Another Catholic here and I would definitely described myself as a feminist. Op I think you're stereotypical us!

Monty27 · 04/10/2020 02:38

@Mariola321

Monty get annoyed again. 🤭
Not biting 👍
Sarahpaula · 04/10/2020 02:41

Also what about all the sexual abuse in the Catholic church. All the rapes of children? All the killing of children? (Ireland)

Never mind how can anyone be feminist and be a Catholic.

i think . "how can ANYONE be a Catholic" after all the child rape and sexual abuse scandals in the Catholic Church.

I grew up in the rep.of Ireland. The things that the Catholic church did there are unbelievable. Literally the cruellest things you could ever imagine.

One personal example that I have: my mother was in hospital as a child, seriously ill with polio. She was paralysed, as were other children on her ward. The hospital was run by the Catholic church. She told me that the priests and nuns would beat the paralysed children, and would make them eat their one vomit.

I don't know how anyone can know about all the child abuse scandals in the Catholic church, and still be a Catholic.

Sarahpaula · 04/10/2020 02:42

@Sorberret why are you still a Catholic after all the child sex abuse in the Catholic church.

What about the priests raping children? Why would you want to be associated with an organisation like that

DioneTheDiabolist · 04/10/2020 02:45

Do you think the same thing about Social Services @Sarahpaula? They are charged with protecting our children and vulnerable adults, but have been used by abusers and covered up abuse.Sad Would you then not call them if you knew someone was being abused?

Gertiegumboot · 04/10/2020 02:47

Interesting thread. I still have faith in God but very little respect for the hierarchy of the church any more which has strayed too far away from its origins, when many of the first early leaders were women. I suppose I only remain a Catholic (a failing one at that) for reasons of social justice.

Nearly all the intelligent Catholic professional women I know who have been inspired by their faith to use it for the good in their working lives, or who feel a sense of vocation, have become disillusioned with the church and have moved way , way beyond it, taking their energy and faith with them. Many have felt that the church simply doesn't know how to relate to them outside of the role of wife and mother, devout widow or nun. (This is a slight exaggeration perhaps but largely true.)

I felt a surge of hope when Pope Francis was elected which has now largely diminished. He is slightly more enlightened than many of his predecessors but ultimately he is an elderly South American man, one who is battling huge opposition to reform within the Vatican. Incidentally, I remember watching news pictures of various papal conclaves over the years and being moved to see the archbishop's walking forward as one, preparing to vote. On the last occasion, I remember feeling profound sadness that women were excluded from this important spiritual process.

Most of the priests I know personally are seriously mysogynistic, sadly even a few good ones who would dispute that they are. They have no idea what it is like to be a woman in the 21st century or the issues they face. I am not convinced many of them care. Half of them seem afraid to look you in the eye. I've been involved with lots of volunteering in various Catholic parishes over the past thirty years and have encountered many priests who are petty tyrants; unprofessional and disorganized ones at that, obsessed with exerting control, in a myriad of petty ways, to the detriment of the parish. They don't seem to have much faith in, or respect for, the laity. And congregation numbers reflect that I think. I think the training and recruitment of priests needs serious reform and of course we need married priests and women priests.

And I am convinced that the hideous scandals of paedophilic priests would not have been so widespread and numerous had women been given more agency within the church; and very little seems to have changed on that score in recent years either.

Sorry for such a depressing post. I have enjoyed reading posts that are more hopeful. LastFiratEverything I would love to learn more about your campaigning organisation.

trixiebelden77 · 04/10/2020 02:49

I’m both.

TBH I would have thought your thinking applied to most religions.

If I were to divorce, I accept I can’t remarry. I think everyone should be able to do so, however, and support no-fault divorce as we have here in my country.

I would not choose to terminate a pregnancy myself, but I support TOP being legal and freely available for any reason at all. I simply cannot stomach forcing another woman to have a child.

Sarahpaula · 04/10/2020 02:51

I just think that the Catholic church has caused so much damage where I live in Ireland, and people still brush under the carpet, child rapes and child deaths caused by priests and nuns.

I think ,why would I worship a bunch of child killers and rapists?

DioneTheDiabolist · 04/10/2020 02:53

Priests, paedophiles or not, are not worshipped in the Catholic Church.Shock

Sarahpaula · 04/10/2020 02:54

I don't know why women go alone with either Islam or Catholicism, the only answer is because they have been brainwashed from birth, and are also (more in the case of Islam) too scared to leave for fear of being shamed by society

trixiebelden77 · 04/10/2020 02:54

sarahpaula, I suppose for the same reasons people are able to be Anglicans despite abuse in that church, are able to work for the NHS despite the abuse of patients that has occurred, are comfortable calling themselves British despite the atrocities committed in the name of Empire.....

What conclusions did you reach when you turned your searing insight onto your own allegiances? They must have been quite uncomfortable.

raddledoldmisanthropist · 04/10/2020 02:54

i think "how can ANYONE be a Catholic"

I imagine it's the same way that people can be in the Labour party despite Mao and Stalin's murder of millions, still be in the C of E despite the witch burnings, still live in Germany despite the holocaust, still be in the British army despite Bloody Sunday, be in the police despite Hillsborough or be Muslim despite the conquest of Spain.

Some people just don't want to accept that they are guilty by association because They Are All The Same Aren't They?

Are you sure you don't believe in original sin? You seem quite keen on it.

We get it, you don't like Catholics coming over here, taking our jobs and lowering house prices. Could you perhaps not go and start a thread about how all Jews are to blame for the actions of the government of Israel for a bit of variety?

Sarahpaula · 04/10/2020 02:55

@trixiebelden77 what allegiances? I am not any religion.

So you think that people shouldn't be upset about the child rapes caused by the Catholic church? Is that what you are saying?

Sarahpaula · 04/10/2020 02:57

@raddledoldmisanthropist I was brought up in a Catholic family in Catholic Ireland. I have seen the absolute hell that the Catholic church has caused for people there.

Priests raping children was common. I have seen many, many lives destroyed in Ireland.

Yet the Catholics on this thread don't even want to acknowledge it. You want to brush it under the carpet? Shame on you I say

Sarahpaula · 04/10/2020 02:59

Of course we can say that not all Catholics are like that.

But to think that we shouldn't even acknowledge all the child abuse, depravity and corruption in our religion, and to think about how it could be better, and you know not rape children so much in future,

To not even acknowledge all the problems and think about how the religion could be better (or eradicated) is shocking!

DioneTheDiabolist · 04/10/2020 03:00

Yeah, that's totally what @trixiebelden77 is saying.🤣 Catch yerself on @Sarahpaula.🤣🤣🤣

raddledoldmisanthropist · 04/10/2020 03:00

I am not any religion.

An atheist is it? You lot are monsters. You've murdered more people than Christians and Muslims combined in the name of 'getting rid of religion'

I don't know how you sleep at night knowing how many children have been raped by atheists.

Not blonde are you by any chance Sarah? I have some issues with Vikings I'd like to take up with The Blondes.

Sarahpaula · 04/10/2020 03:02

Here is an article from the Murphy report
"In 2009, the Murphy report on the sexual abuse of children in the archdiocese of Dublin revealed that the Catholic church’s priority in dealing with paedophilia was not child welfare, but rather secrecy, the avoidance of scandal, the protection of its reputation and the preservation of church assets."

I am not going to worship a bunch of perverts. The fact that these priests said they were better than everyone else, while they were raping children, makes my blood boil

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