DD is always put with disruptive children...AIBU to ask her to move?

[peacockfeather11]

Every year this happens and I always try and say nothing because I don't want to be that mother that comes in to school complaining. But this year I am furious! My DD has been put on a table with the most disruptive and she's in tears and I can truly understand. It's too much too ask of her and she's so sensitive she never wants to let the teacher down which I feel is manipulated.

Do I ask the teacher to move her or AIBU?

What on earth do you want teachers to do though? There is no support for behaviour (it’s not even regarded as SEN anymore) do you put the children that are badly behaved together and they fight, and throw things and shout at each other as they all have impulse control and anger issues. Or do you spread them out around the class, consequently sitting them next to ‘good’ children? You have to be careful even sitting them next to children who may be tempted to behave badly as this can cause serious long term impacts on their behaviour too. Just one badly behaved child can be a nightmare - I teach in a ‘nice’ school and it’s still a problem here.

When I was very young I was sat across from a girl who kicked me constantly changing beer the table. I was painfully shy and unable to say anything.
Apparently one day my mum saw my legs which were covered in bruises. She took a day off work and went into school to speak to the teacher. The response she got was 'Unfortunately X is from a rough family with lots of naughty brothers , she has a bad homlife.' I continued to be used as a punch bag with this child kicking the cheap out of me and the school doing nothing about it.
Mum says she was at her wits end. She told me in the end to hit this child back and that is what I did. I lost it and snapped I pulled her hair so hard. I would not let go until she both the message to stop j thing and bullying me. Crewmember the dinner lady starring to run across the playground to stop me hurting the bully, and the teacher holding her back.
Funny enough the bully never did hit me again, she tried to be friends but No way in hell did I want to be her friend. It taught be a valuable life lesson, one that I should never, ever, have had to endure.

Fwiw @pheasantplucker2, at my kids' school, a mainstream village school, kids with send are very much a valued part of the community. To the extent that I worry how they will find high school after such a loving and accepting experience of primary.

@rawlikesushi

Also - weirdo, really?

Kids with SEN have been called some awful names on this thread.

Maybe it was your lack of tolerance and hateful language that led to you having no friends?

Minimising the experience of a child to further your own agenda. Nice.

I too have this, every time. Ds2 is so sweet and compliant, he's always put with a child who has behavioural issues, or hits him, or extreme SN.

He's always ok about it. I'm not. Once, I demanded he was moved immediately, because the physical stuff was ridiculous.

He's been partnered fir his first year if secondary with a very nice boy, high SN. So far it's ok.

@ithinkiveseenthisfilmbefore

The truth is that the disruptive child should be supported by extra staff in the classroom but schools don't have the resources, so desperate teachers invariably try this method instead. Deep down most know it isn't fair on the compliant child and wouldn't support their own child being used in this way.

This.

So many disruptive children in classes these days, many just poorly behaved, many with special needs whether diagnosed or undiagnosed, and no funding for more classroom support. It's putting teachers in an impossible situation.

No, children who need help shouldn't have an adult superglued to them. They need to learn how other children behave from those children. If you don't want your child to be helping other children to socialise then I suggest home education.

@thegreenlight

What on earth do you want teachers to do though? There is no support for behaviour (it’s not even regarded as SEN anymore) do you put the children that are badly behaved together and they fight, and throw things and shout at each other as they all have impulse control and anger issues. Or do you spread them out around the class, consequently sitting them next to ‘good’ children? You have to be careful even sitting them next to children who may be tempted to behave badly as this can cause serious long term impacts on their behaviour too. Just one badly behaved child can be a nightmare - I teach in a ‘nice’ school and it’s still a problem here.

Actually this is exactly what I want teachers to do. I want them to be honest and say “look, it is shit but there is fuck all we can do about it. The system is screwed and we are all just trying to survive.” What I don’t want is to be told that being sat next to a disruptive child is “good” for my child and for her benefit. “Bring her out of herself” is a particularly annoying phrase. I know it isn’t. Dd knows it isn’t. The teacher knows it isn’t. Parents need to be able to trust teachers and things like this destroys that trust.

(See also - dd spending 75% of maths lessons helping other kids as “teaching others really cements the learning”. That may be true on one level but the reason she spends 75% of maths lessons helping others is that it only takes her 15 minutes to do the class task, the class extension task and the extra extension task that her poor teacher stays up late every night to do for her. I’d say the learning is pretty cemented anyway! She is helping others because the teacher doesn’t know what the fuck to do with her and because there are 30 kids and the teacher can’t get round them all.)

What on earth do you want teachers to do though?
Have the common sense and decency not to always sit students with challenging behaviour next to the quiet, most compliant children in the class on the grounds that they'll probably not make a fuss.

In a typical class, there may be a handful of students who display challenging behaviour. Sometimes it emerges from a SEN need, sometimes it's just bad behaviour (probably because either SLT haven't got a handle on behaviour or they've got a Mumsnet parent who is ready to be furious if their child gets told to behave), but the rest of the class will be a lovely mix of generally well behaved students. Within the well-behaved students there will be a range of personalities. Some may be more easily drawn into silly behaviour than others but with decent behaviour management they should generally settle well. Also, seating plans can always be changed.

As a teacher, I don't honestly believe that the only possible option is to always put the quiet, compliant child next to the loudest and most disruptive. In fact, I think staff who do that all the time and don't review it are doing a disservice to both students because the quiet child gets their education routinely disrupted and the disruptive child doesn't end up either learning strategies to regulate behaviour, or they don't learn that their behaviour won't be tolerated because the quiet child won't speak up and the teacher is quite happy to think that no complaints equals no problem.

There’s a balance as with anything. I agree it’s wrong to be a “snow plough” parent leaping in when anything is less than ideal for your own child. But if it goes on for months and is compromising your own child’s happiness and development I think it is incumbent on a parent to act.

Believe me I’ve soul searched over this. Who wants to be the bitch complaining when their child is helping someone in need? It’s really not easy.

Why does your dd desperately need to learn this? Are there behaviours from her dB she's not happy about and you are telling her she just needs to ignore
She shrieks at him when he does anything that annoys her (looks at her funny, picks up a plate first) and he thinks this is hilarious and winds her up. He needs not to wind her up but she needs to be less easy to annoy.

There has to be a balance. The teacher needs to dilute the poorer behaviour, all of the children need to be able to work at their pace but it is fundamentally unfair for some children to always be used as buffers. It is not the job of children to deal with complex behaviours and it is not the job of children to act as a second teacher. I think there is a massive difference between expecting a child to be empathetic and value difference and compromising their needs and education for the benefit of the whole/the more disruptive children. Often it tips into the latter.

I still remember feeling massively pissed off that I was sat next to someone really low achieving ( but lovely) for one of my gcse classes. I got an A*; she got a G. Yes I got a top score but I wasn’t pushed, found the jump to A-level really hard and it by no means met my needs. It obviously didn’t do a lot for her either. I still find it bizarre that there wasn’t any setting.

I think people can be as PC as they like but I don't care.

It's not my job to sacrifice my child for someone''s kid. If it's me or you, I choose me. If it's us or them, I choose us. I don't care if that makes me an "unkind meanie". I'm sure lots of men who commit domestic violence have serious psychological issues and need support but I'm not supporting them either. I don't care if your child with ADHD ends up in prison. That's your problem. I'll complain and complain and the teacher can dislike me all she likes. I'll sleep soundly.

These children shouldn't be in mainstream schooling anyway. They obviously can't cope with it. The government should just commit to long term PRUs and just stop wasting all of our time. They should divert the funding they put into prisons into PRUs. Disruptive kids should be referred to PRUs and just stay there for entire schooling. But these schools should have more resources, 1-2-1s, additional psychological support etc that they need.

Win win for all the kids.

"Minimising the experience of a child to further your own agenda. Nice."

Well my agenda is explaining that mainstream schools are for everybody - even the children with SEN, the children with disrupted home lives, the children experiencing horrendous safeguarding issues and so on. Imagine that!

My agenda is also trying to raise a bit of fucking empathy for those kids and their families.

I'm not interested in decades old anecdotes really because they're not relevant now, except that they are harmful because parents view their own child's experiences through that lens.

I agree that no child should be expected to put up with bullying or harm.

I agree that the seating plan should be regularly rearranged so that no child is seated next to a disruptive pupil for longer than a few weeks, a half term at most.

But some of the language and attitudes on here are abhorrent. Luckily I rarely come across anything like this in rl.

@rawlikesushi

"I lay my tables out in sixes, and have more tables than kids (for example, 5 tables of 6 for 27 children). I put the disruptive child on the end of the six with an empty seat next to them. They then have the other four children to socialise with, but cannot physically reach them to bother them."

Yes that's ideal isn't it.

The problems arise if you've only got space for 5 tables of 6, and 30 (or more) children.

I'm jealous that you have additional space for individual desks too.

How are you doing it this year, when pupils have to be in rows?

It’s tight, my classroom is really quite small, I just remove other furniture to allow for the kids to have space, I don’t have a desk, just a tiny table with a laptop. We go outside for any activity that requires movement.

For rows, I asked the children to privately write the names of children they wanted to sit with because they must now sit there all the time, including when eating lunch. Luckily, every child, including the challenging children were chosen by someone. Challenging children are on the ends of the rows at the front and back to limit the neighbours that they can bother.

"She is helping others because the teacher doesn’t know what the fuck to do with her and because there are 30 kids and the teacher can’t get round them all."

Well that's a piss-poor teacher.

I'll ask an early finisher to support a friend if there's two minutes of lesson left and by the time I've explained another task, we'll be out of time - obviously the pupil just goes home snd says they've helped their friend again.

I might also ask a child to explain something to a friend if I'm not certain they've got a deep enough understanding of the concept. Kids can get everything correct but come unstuck when they've got to explain why they're doing something, it makes them think about the whys a little bit more.

@LolaSmiles

What on earth do you want teachers to do though? Have the common sense and decency not to always sit students with challenging behaviour next to the quiet, most compliant children in the class on the grounds that they'll probably not make a fuss.

In a typical class, there may be a handful of students who display challenging behaviour. Sometimes it emerges from a SEN need, sometimes it's just bad behaviour (probably because either SLT haven't got a handle on behaviour or they've got a Mumsnet parent who is ready to be furious if their child gets told to behave), but the rest of the class will be a lovely mix of generally well behaved students. Within the well-behaved students there will be a range of personalities. Some may be more easily drawn into silly behaviour than others but with decent behaviour management they should generally settle well. Also, seating plans can always be changed.

As a teacher, I don't honestly believe that the only possible option is to always put the quiet, compliant child next to the loudest and most disruptive. In fact, I think staff who do that all the time and don't review it are doing a disservice to both students because the quiet child gets their education routinely disrupted and the disruptive child doesn't end up either learning strategies to regulate behaviour, or they don't learn that their behaviour won't be tolerated because the quiet child won't speak up and the teacher is quite happy to think that no complaints equals no problem.

But if you've got four disruptive kids in a class, and you sit them next to someone different every half term, that's 24 kids who have had the experience of sitting next to someone disruptive.

It's just unavoidable sometimes, but you must know that.

Having said that, teachers have no choice but to manage classes this way. This is just another invisible class barrier for good parents to jump over. So jump over it.

Working class parents are often more cowed by authority and less likely to say anything. Low confidence parents will also keep quiet. And neglectful or poor parents won't notice or care but confident parents who care about their children's welfare will complain and force a seat change. So in the end only the children whose parents haven't complained will be sitting next to the bullies. That's life.

This is why parents, not schools, are the greatest predictors of educational success. You can't rely on teachers to put your child first. That's not their job. It's your job. And, frankly, most teachers prefer disruptive children especially cheeky ones with a heart of gold (unless they teach in private schools). Your daughter can't compete with some lovable rogue stabbing people in the leg! Teachers love kids like that.

So stop worrying about being popular with the teacher and just protect your child.

"Disruptive kids should be referred to PRUs and just stay there for entire schooling."

Did you read the post upthread about the little boy with ADHD who was very disruptive at primary school but is now Head Boy and on track to do really well?

I don't think the outcome would have been as good if he'd been moved to a PRU aged 7.

You can't write kids off so early you just can't and smug parents need to realise that they could have had a child with complex needs, and may yet have a grandchild.

PRUs aren’t equipped for large amounts of kids, the purpose of them is to provide a small almost 1-1 environment for the most vulnerable.

@EmmaWithTheGreatHair

I think here lies the problem - it's parents like you, who think that it is just fine for children to exhibit very antisocial behaviour - hitting, throwing things, screaming and yelling, refusing to cooperate with reasonable requests, using aggressive and rude language - and label this as just "wearing your heart on your sleeve". That is a ridiculous comment. Children have to learn to control their emotional outbursts by understanding what triggers them, and dealing with it maturely. There is absolutely NO positive spin on this kind of misbehaviour.

I'm really sad for your son being targeted by a sly girl. But if his response was to lash out, that's just as unacceptable as her behaviour. Two wrongs don't make a right.

By the way, I'm sure my DD can be irritating. But she has never thrown a book at someone's head in temper and caused injury. She has never scratched her work partner vindictively and drawn blood. She has never angrily pushed someone over in the playground (in this incidence DD was ticking off a boy who had attacked his female work partner in class, he didnt like being told off and shoved her so hard she had a graze that needed a plaster), she has never caused the entire class to cease work and go outside in the playground while one of the pupils played out a destructive meltdown, she has never called written naughty words on the whiteboard, she has never ripped up someone's work or deliberately hurled the contents of their pencil case on the floor, she has never grabbed a handful of PE equipment and hurled it round the playground (injuring another boy who had to be sent home because they thought his nose may be broken). All those things are done to her and her male classmates.

I'm not saying girls have no behavioural problems, but in my experience the girls' problems are typically different in nature. I don't want my DD growing up thinking it is just FINE for men to be violent, aggressive, to lash out verbally and physically when they are annoyed - while the girls just have to sit and take it, and in fact are REQUIRED by the teacher to sit through it day after day, not even allowed to sit with a friend and shelter from it.

"It’s tight, my classroom is really quite small, I just remove other furniture to allow for the kids to have space, I don’t have a desk, just a tiny table with a laptop. We go outside for any activity that requires movement.

For rows, I asked the children to privately write the names of children they wanted to sit with because they must now sit there all the time, including when eating lunch. Luckily, every child, including the challenging children were chosen by someone. Challenging children are on the ends of the rows at the front and back to limit the neighbours that they can bother."

Same. No furniture now except desks. I've done the same with the challenging children but they're still next to or behind someone.

I must admit that I didn't ask them to write down who they wanted to sit with - I couldn't guarantee everyone would be chosen. Weren't you worried that kids would complain that they weren't next to the two they wrote down, because several people wrote those same two down? Or someone wasn't chosen? Or someone chose people they muck about with, or have history with, or a parent has complained about?

This used to happen to me at school back in the early 90s (secondary) and it happens now with DD (primary and now secondary)

We are both quiet, reserved sorts who just want to get the task done. DD is labelled as a competent student. She is always being to,d to put her hand up if she knows the answer but doesn't. But her work shows she is learning and keeping up.

DD doesn't mind sitting next to children who genuinely want to learn and do the task but sometimes she gets someone who messes around and cannot be arsed. So when they are asked to present what they've done, and DD is like, we got nothing, it impacts on her confidence to learn. The teacher often gets annoyed even though she engineered the situation. Does my head in.

@Bingbongbinglybong where did I ever mention that my ds ‘lashed out’ - please don’t make things up!

Hereye, there are plenty of bolshy working-class parents, and plenty of middle-class parents who wouldn't dream of exempting their little snowflake from his turn next to the child with poor impulse control.

Wonderful to see yet another layer of offensive prejudice from that certain type of parent though, makes it easier to spot you in a crowd.

The opposite, Ds is and always has been extremely controlled!