DD is always put with disruptive children...AIBU to ask her to move?

[peacockfeather11]

Every year this happens and I always try and say nothing because I don't want to be that mother that comes in to school complaining. But this year I am furious! My DD has been put on a table with the most disruptive and she's in tears and I can truly understand. It's too much too ask of her and she's so sensitive she never wants to let the teacher down which I feel is manipulated.

Do I ask the teacher to move her or AIBU?

But if you've got four disruptive kids in a class, and you sit them next to someone different every half term, that's 24 kids who have had the experience of sitting next to someone disruptive.

It's just unavoidable sometimes, but you must know that.

Yes, but moving children around is not the same as the quiet, compliant children ALWAYS being sat next to disruptive students (which does happen quite often when some teachers don't design decent seating plans).

I was the quiet child in class and hated how often I'd go lesson to lesson, always having the noisy / disruptive students next to me. I wanted to learn and I wanted to have decent discussion when the teacher said to discuss with your partner. That didn't happen in certain subjects because the teacher used to think we were responsible for being a good influence on other students (shit logic - the quiet hard working,not popular kids are not going to influence kids) or they'd rely on the fact that we'd ignore the disruptive students and put up with it, whereas other well behaved students might protest when they're getting irritated.

Teachers who always sit quiet compliant students next to disruptive students do it because it makes the teacher's life easier with little regard for the educational impact on the students involved.

When I became a teacher I made a promise to myself that I'm not putting other children in that position.

Yanbu

Its one thing to put up with a little bit of "annoyance" I would never intervene fir that I tell mine learnng to deal with distraction is a life skill.

But in yr 5 dd was on the rota for this. Kid deliberately kept her from seeing the board. Moved when she moved. At one point in yr 6 she ended up sat between 2 akd working on her lap as they Manspread across the table so she had no space. One if then also creeper her out when whilst they were preparing for the yr 6 play he constantly moved so his knees woukd be touching her back ( sat on floor in hall) every time he was told to move back he slowly made his way back again so she put up with alot of unwanted touching til the teacher mived him the other side.

Was even worse in yr 7. She ended up sat vetween 2 of them again who threw her stuff around shouted at eachother (, they were friends either side of her ) tbrough her ears and Iver her head. She again had to keep everything on her lap as they either threw it around or manspread .

They constanlty shoved her around ajd at one point one pushed her on the stairs and sent her and the friend she was walking with flying. Thankfully she jas quick reactions sue to gymnastics and managed to grab the rail so didnt fall all the way to the bottom. She just received a bang ti the head and her and her friend were trodden on on the pile up.

Teachers response was basically " boys will be boys "

But guess she's intolerant for wanting to be abke to put her pencil case on the tavke and not be thrown down the stairs.

@Bingbongbinglybong in fact you’ve totally not ‘got’ what I’ve said at all! You’ve twisted it and used your own narrative!

Why on earth would I mean that ‘wearing your heart in your sleeve’ means you can be violent! Jees!

Ds can be emotional, cry, be very loving, gives me hugs (still now as a teenager) - those are the actions meant by ‘wearing his heart on his sleeve’ and NOT condoning violent behaviour!

@rawlikesushi My DS is in a PRU because his previous school didn't adhere to his EHCP and he got very upset and was excluded.
He cannot stay there permanently, he needs to be in mainstream; he can't learn to socialise with NT kids without being in school with them. He can't make friends very well because he doesn't play Fortnite (he's 8) and they all live miles away and while he copes with playdates with calm children, most of the others don't.

He was almost sent to an MLD school aged 7 because he'd been refusing to work at his first school; he's just started Y4 and yesterday was complaining that his classmate took his turn in rounding numbers (he's on Y3 work with the rest of his year).

I am extremely in favour of inclusion and one of the reasons is this "writing off". I know a lot of parents would prefer my DS not be with their DC. Sorry to say there will be people like my DS in society for ever and you can't just "put them away".

rawlikesushi Sat 03-Oct-20 09:16:27
Hereye, there are plenty of bolshy working-class parents, and plenty of middle-class parents who wouldn't dream of exempting their little snowflake from his turn next to the child with poor impulse control.

Wonderful to see yet another layer of offensive prejudice from that certain type of parent though, makes it easier to spot you in a crowd.

I didn't say working class parents weren't bolshy. I said they were more cowed by authority, which is true and there are studies to prove it.

But I for one think your contributions to this thread are invaluable. Children who don't want to be pinched, hit, or have their ponytails pulled are snowflakes. I'm glad because the OP and other parents can see that teachers like you will never change their minds and they shouldn't worry about trying to win you round. As another poster stated - there are snowflakes and victims and all children are treated accordingly. As I said, teachers prefer disruptive children.

I hope this gives parents confidence to complain, complain, complain!

"When I became a teacher I made a promise to myself that I'm not putting other children in that position."

Well yes, because it's terrible practice to make someone ALWAYS sit next to a disruptive child, I don't think you're unique on that.

despouse, I hope your boy is back in mainstream and properly supported very soon. No right-thinking person can truly believe that an 8yo should be sent to a PRU for the next ten years. It's rare to come across mn attitudes in rl I think.

Why is putting kids in PRUs writing them off?

Surely those kids there are also just lovable rogues, future head boys and kids with a heart of gold? Surely your children are better off away from middle class snowflake meanies in mainstream schools?

drspouse
he can't learn to socialise with NT kids without being in school with them.

This makes absolutely no sense and it's not how child development works at all. And your child can learn to socialise in social activities outside of school.

"But I for one think your contributions to this thread are invaluable. Children who don't want to be pinched, hit, or have their ponytails pulled are snowflakes."

Happy to help. Might I also suggest an adult reading intervention since I never said any of those things?

"Surely those kids there are also just lovable rogues, future head boys and kids with a heart of gold? Surely your children are better off away from middle class snowflake meanies in mainstream schools?"

They have the potential to be all of those things, may already be some of those things, but it is easier to learn good choices and wanted behaviours when you see them modelled around you.

Don't you ever think 'there but for the grace of god'? Or you really are that smug?

Fascinating thread. Have just had the same problem with my 6yo DD who is hard working and well behaved at school being paired with a disruptive child. I have complained (for the first time ever) and asked that they be rotated round so she gets a turn with someone less disruptive. FWIW I don’t think she should be exempt but I also think they should be moved round frequently so well behaved kids aren’t stuck with disruptive ones. Got pretty firm pushback from the teacher who said she needs to learn to collaborate better 🤨 not something any of her previous teachers have commented on - indeed they have admitted in the past that they have used her to support other kids who are struggling! This thread has made me feel a lot better about voicing my concerns.

Had this at primary with dd. It was sold to me as your child is sociable and very confident and one of the brighter children and it would be good for her to help others.
Dd did it for a term. Then my confident 8yr old told the teacher she'd done her turn and someone else should do it now. And that's what happened.

I get that teachers understand the dynamics of their class better than parents and they have to do the best for every child but it's usually at the expense of the well behaved girls. Dds school was good and alternated seating arrangements. I didnt have the only gobby child who objected.

What's the answer though? One class with all the disruptive children? Single sex teaching? I dont know.

@hereyehearye

Why is putting kids in PRUs writing them off?

Surely those kids there are also just lovable rogues, future head boys and kids with a heart of gold? Surely your children are better off away from middle class snowflake meanies in mainstream schools?

drspouse
he can't learn to socialise with NT kids without being in school with them.

This makes absolutely no sense and it's not how child development works at all. And your child can learn to socialise in social activities outside of school.

DS has tried Cubs (he's the youngest but he does socialise a bit), football (you don't socialise), dancing (ditto), swimming (ditto). He struggles to join in, let alone talk to the other children. At school he has 30 hours a week with the same children. After lockdown he was in a holiday club and he started to talk about new friends after 3 weeks; that's 90 weeks of a sports club assuming all the same children come. I'd love to hear your qualifications in child development if you don't think children learn from other children. My DS' SALT has put in his care plan that he needs to learn from NT children how to socialise. I'll warrant she knows more than you do.

Why is it so overwhelmingly girls who perform this civilising function? At least on this thread.

As the mother of a “good” girl and a rather disruptive boy I can see both side but I wish teachers and parents of the struggling kids hold just be honest and say that such placements are solely for the teacher and disruptive child’s benefit. Dressing it up by claiming it helps the “good” child is such bullshit. Of course the parent of the struggling child will want them to have positive influences to model their behaviour and it makes the teachers life much easier if they have a mini teacher sat next to said child helping them with the work and regulating their behaviour. It does not really help the “good” child, detrimentally impacts on their own learning and teaches them that their needs are not as important.

Teachers have to think about the whole class and very much adopt the greater good approach. That does not benefit individual children whose academic and emotional needs are being ignored in favour of the struggling ones. Some honesty that yeah it’s shit and their needs are being sacrificed to support these kids and that the education system needs to change would be helpful.

Some honesty that yeah it’s shit and their needs are being sacrificed to support these kids and that the education system needs to change would be helpful.
I'm curious what you would suggest instead?
Should all children who are disruptive have a 1:1 adult hence preventing them from learning to work in groups or with partners?
Should we have segregated schools for the disruptive? Again, this isn't going to help their learning and it means that "quiet" children will erroneously think that the world only contains other quiet children.

As a teacher I think there are definitely children currently in main steam education whose needs would be better met in specialist schools, yes.

I don’t know the answer to this but do know that putting the responsibility onto biddable girls isn’t the solution is it?

@Holyrivolli well I believe in many cases it doesn't do the calming child any bad. My dd has grown in confidence and is more likely to speak up when paired with the louder, bolshier (is that a word?) kids. She is also more understanding about why certain kids may behave in a certain way and is always very kind to and about these children. I appreciate that not all kids will respond in the same way that she does but I also think it's wrong to assume that all kids are going to be traumatised or suffer long term issues because they happen to spend some of the year sat next to a disruptive child.

I also think many posters are putting some kind of ulterior motive onto teachers and believe they are using them as unpaid TAs. I doubt this is the case and is more the case of diluting certain personalities around the room. A table full of all the disruptive kids isn't going to be conducive to learning anymore than a table of timid, shy kids who can't enter discussions together are (for example). You need the mixture of personalities in a classroom and it must take time and a lot of trial and error to get the right combination of children sat together.

@Charleyhorses

Ask. I did this with my DD in year 6. Teacher sorted it out in 5 mins. Also encouraged Dd to tell me more about any problems she had.

@Charleyhorses can you tell me what you said? I don't want to come across as an over-sensitive mum but a concerned one.

Ds experienced lots of low level bullying from someone he had to sit next to in class when he was about 9 - each individual pinch/name/push/etc wasn’t enough to say anything to the teacher about but cumulatively it was having a really bad effect on him. Instead of skipping into class and being a happy smiley child he had just become sad and low and walked in as slowly as possible.

I spoke to his teacher who expressed real surprise at who I said the bully was; apparently he was a lovely boy that wasn’t like that and was I sure it wasn’t someone else. Errr no, they weren’t sitting next to him. But she did say she would tell him off and stop him from being mean. Apparently the boy claimed he wasn’t doing it on purpose, they were just accidents...

Happened again, spoke to teacher - this time the other teacher as he had two depending on the day. Again lots of surprise, she hadn’t been told about it previously but accepted and told the boy off, convinced he didn’t need moving as he was a good boy so would change when told off.

Worked for a few days but soon started again. And tried a third time where again I got told the same.

Eventually I had had enough of their promises. This time instead of talking to the teacher i sent in a safeguarding complaint regarding their repeated failure to protect my son which was having a serious detrimental effect on him. It worked. They finally took it seriously and he got a bad telling off and moved. I also had a phone call from them as soon as I was back from the school run (sent the email the evening before). So if your child is suffering and they’re not taking you seriously, it’s definitely worth doing it as a safeguarding complaint. The teacher later on did say that after she was told, she then watched them from outside the class while being taught by a different teacher and she admitted she finally saw what was going on - the boy was being very careful not to be seen by the teacher in class but obviously didn’t realise he was being watched from behind so could be seen. But she said that she could see the class teacher had no idea what was going on and she wouldn’t have done either.

It definitely had a bad effect on ds’s mental health and schools are finally beginning to wake up to the importance mental health which is a great way to tackle it with them.

The crappy kids should just be chucked into isolation, rather than left to damage the nice kids.

I've no idea what to do with disruptive, neglected kids. My son's school has a couple of core troublemakers who are practically feral. I don't think they can handle the idea of school at all, the whole "sitting down" thing and "listening" is beyond them. Some sort of intervention is needed but why 29 other kids have to suffer is beyond me.

I don’t know the answer to this but do know that putting the responsibility onto biddable girls isn’t the solution is it?
You're right.
Whatever steps are taken, expecting quiet girls (because it is normally girls) to put up with it isn't right. It's just another drip drip drip of telling girls that they should be nice and put up with other people making them feel uncomfortable, put up with people being rude or disruptive because to speak out isn't nice.

There needs to be firm behaviour management from the teacher (ideally backed by senior leadership) to send a message that disruption is not acceptable. Where there's SEN needs then there should be a discussion about strategies to support the disruptive child in class or the behaviour policy has to be followed with the school's SEN base stepping up to intervene and advise staff.

What's for certain is expecting the same few children to go lesson to lesson carrying the burden of other students' bad behaviour isn't on.

@wibdib i'm glad it got sorted! It's a shame you have to really go to town on them to get things taken seriously. At the end of the day a child is still a person with a right to be safe. It's not as if the school is some sort of magical zone where the law of the land has stopped applying. If those adults are neglecting and endangering a child they need bloody telling.

I ended up hospitalised with leg injuries due to bullies and the school still didn't give a shit, as they hadn't during all my previous reported incidents. My parents were close to calling the police. But we didn't because it was the 90s and we thought it'd be going too far. Nowadays I'm a lot less reluctant seeing as schools will continually make excuses for little bullies because of their sob-story circumstances and leave the nice kids with a life of anxiety.

YANBU it’s not fair to always put the well behaved/quiet children with the disruptive ones - it’s a ballache as a teacher because you have to spread the disruptive ones out but honestly it’s not fair if it’s constantly the same kids next to them.
All my “disruptive” children are lovely and not unkind at all, but they can be distracting to sit next to due to concentration issues.
It’s important to rotate regularly and not always have the same “types” of children next to each other.