DD is always put with disruptive children...AIBU to ask her to move?

[peacockfeather11]

Every year this happens and I always try and say nothing because I don't want to be that mother that comes in to school complaining. But this year I am furious! My DD has been put on a table with the most disruptive and she's in tears and I can truly understand. It's too much too ask of her and she's so sensitive she never wants to let the teacher down which I feel is manipulated.

Do I ask the teacher to move her or AIBU?

@Feellikedancingyeah

My ds was always the disruptive child. I asked for him to be sat on a desk on his own in front of the teacher. Better for the whole class and for him too

That's the ideal. I could do that last year. This year I have no free desks and no space for one either. You sound sensible. Sometimes parents don't like their child sitting alone.

That's good to hear raw

I dont fir a second believe its easy being a teacher. But I do know from school myself, akd from 2 dds in school that you will be surprised what kids will take in order to please the teacher or not be any bother

The messages you send now, they will carry for the rest of their lives. So make sure they are good ones. Positive ones. Victim blaming, drama creating assumptions and accusations of dishonesty style messages have the potential to shape their lives in very negative ways

Do you think every complaint from a child must be acted upon?
I've not said that. I'm not saying we should jump when a child says so, but you know that.

I've said that if a child is expressing their learning is being disrupted then:

• it's wrong to dismiss them as being whiny
• it's wrong to say that they should put up with it as long as there's no physical harm or bullying
• it's wrong to look at a list of ways a child's education can be disrupted and say 'cry me a river'

What I wouldn't do is dismiss a child's concerns as whiny because I'd decided that they need to suck up the disruption that is happening around them because it's not a big deal / it's only low level / it will do them some good to be sat with a disruptive student / that student has a lot on at home so stuff the education of everyone else etc.

Do you think parents never make unreasonable requests or demands?
I've never said that, but again you know that.

I'm challenging your claims that parents who raise concerns about their child's education being disrupted are whiny and don't want their DC to sit next to someone they don't like.

It's really not unreasonable for parents to want to know their children are able to learn in school. The fact that there are teachers who think it's acceptable to expect children to put up with their learning being disrupted and dismiss them as whiny unless they've demonstrated bullying, physical harm or the teacher has finally decided that after using all their tools and focusing their attention on the disruptive child over and above everyone that's the point when it's acceptable to listen to children. A teacher exhausting all the techniques they have is not a good enough threshold to finally listen to concerns from children about disruption and decide they're not actually whining.

Do you think that every complaint made by a little child must be genuine, valid and taken seriously?
So you wouldn't look into it at all? In Scotland we have 'Every Child Matters' and it's important to listen, no matter how much of a 'whine' you think they are.

You have no idea what I consider whining.

Lola posted a pretty comprehensive list of the type of disruptive behaviour many pp think is unreasonable and you dismissed it as whining.

Brefugee
Exactly, I've also asked several times that if that list doesn't count and gets the 'cry me a river' response and the next threshold is whether there's bullying or physical harm, then what constitutes an acceptable level of disruption to raise without being branded whiny (because apparently they don't tolerate learning being disrupted, whilst dismissing what many people would consider as disruptive behaviour).

Honestly schools let children get away with far too much.

I’ve seen both ends. My son being the one paired up with someone who hurt him every day to being the child myself who disrupted the entire class it took three secondary years and 4 primary before that before I got placed where I needed to be a PRU.

"What I wouldn't do is dismiss a child's concerns as whiny."

Sometimes they are.

"I'm challenging your claims that parents who raise concerns about their child's education being disrupted are whiny and don't want their DC to sit next to someone they don't like."

Again, sometimes they are and yes sometimes their objection is purely that the child is different, without giving them a chance.

"A teacher exhausting all the techniques they have is not a good enough threshold to finally listen to concerns from children about disruption and decide they're not actually whining."

No, whining is complaining about something so trivial no NT child has the right to complain about it, or lying/exaggerating about something I witnessed, or hypocritically complaining about something they themselves do, or objecting to someone before they've given the arrangement a chance, or complaining that they're different/weird/annoying, or having no tolerance for behaviours and reasonable adjustments made for a disability.

@TitianaTitsling

Do you think that every complaint made by a little child must be genuine, valid and taken seriously? So you wouldn't look into it at all? In Scotland we have 'Every Child Matters' and it's important to listen, no matter how much of a 'whine' you think they are.

Of course I would. I've said about a million times I'd look at the context.

@Brefugee

You have no idea what I consider whining.

Lola posted a pretty comprehensive list of the type of disruptive behaviour many pp think is unreasonable and you dismissed it as whining.

No I ignored it as a pointless exercise.

@LolaSmiles

Brefugee Exactly, I've also asked several times that if that list doesn't count and gets the 'cry me a river' response and the next threshold is whether there's bullying or physical harm, then what constitutes an acceptable level of disruption to raise without being branded whiny (because apparently they don't tolerate learning being disrupted, whilst dismissing what many people would consider as disruptive behaviour).

You'll have to refer to my previous reply upthread on this because I cba typing it again.

But why does the context matter. Doesn't matter to the kid unable to work if the kid is kicking the table leg repeatedly ajd jigging the table why the kid is doing it? Anger/fear/planetary alignment the end result is the same isnt it? They cant do their work.

It matters as far as dealing with the child who is kicking the table leg goes.

But it shouldn't matter as far as actually acknowledging the child unable to work is unacceptable to work with good reason and isn't whiny

No, whining is complaining about something so trivial no NT child has the right to complain about it, or lying/exaggerating about something I witnessed, or hypocritically complaining about something they themselves do, or objecting to someone before they've given the arrangement a chance, or complaining that they're different/weird/annoying, or having no tolerance for behaviours and reasonable adjustments made for a disability.

Nobody has mentioned lying or exaggerating. We're talking about disruptive behaviour.

Equally, again you're trying to go down the NT student not liking a child with SEN or not liking someone different to them. It's not about that.

You're still saying child should sit back and tolerate their education being hindered because you've decided they should suck it up.

I've given a list of ways education can be disrupted and they were all dismissed as non-issues. Why should a child accept that and why should a parent accept those behaviours affecting their child's ability to learn?

scully, I'm going to be completely honest here and say that you've given me food for thought in assuming that children who appear happy and engaged might not be. I'm going to give that some more thought, and thank you.

@Whatwouldscullydo

And in fact couldn't many of the quiet compliant kids you expect to absorb it all also could have un DX needs of their own which doesn't seem to matter if they aren't struggling in the right way

^^ yes. It comes down to this and if you're quiet and obedient it's assumed that you never need help.

"You're still saying child should sit back and tolerate their education being hindered because you've decided they should suck it up."

Yes, if what they are complaining (whining) about is....well I've said it enough times now and I don't know how I can say it any other way really.

Sometimes, honestly and truly, kids complain about things which, when investigated, have no foundation.

Well yes Nandos. If a child appears happy, hardworking, and is learning it is easy to assume that they are in fact happy, working hard and learning. I think I might need to make more effort to check in with those children.

Is that because you can't prove whether or not the child was being disruptive so it's assumed that the complainant is whining?

Each time a complaint is dismissed as whining, the child is learning that the teacher dgaf about them

In our case my child didn’t complain herself at all I happened to witness the disruption to her education myself and was 😮 when I probed and it had been going on for months!

I'm assuming no one has siblings who like to whine and complain about each other? I imagine it's that sort of thing that @rawlikesushi is referring to rather than actual fair enough issues.

@NandosPeriometer

Is that because you can't prove whether or not the child was being disruptive so it's assumed that the complainant is whining?

Each time a complaint is dismissed as whining, the child is learning that the teacher dgaf about them

No it might be because it's something ridiculous, a proven lie or exaggeration about something myself or TA witnessed, an inability to make a reasonable adjustment for a disability.

@Mumofsend

I'm assuming no one has siblings who like to whine and complain about each other? I imagine it's that sort of thing that *@rawlikesushi* is referring to rather than actual fair enough issues.

Yes. Thank you.

I dont think anyone has posted anything that can be just dismissed as whining.

We didnt mention accidentky breaking a pencil or something equally trivial.

Yet you repeatedky dismiss anytbing less than violence

Behaviours listed include , throwing someone's stuff about, wobbling the table constantly, kicking table and chair legs which of course makes writing really realky difficult.

Constantly whispering or talking preventing someone from being able to hear

I lean you can bang on about context but that only makes a difference in how you deal with the culprit

It shouldn't be considered whining if a child is being physically prevented from working and says so.

But you do not even seem to register that anything less than 6 hours of table jogging or violence is an issue.

Yes, if what they are complaining (whining) about is....well I've said it enough times now and I don't know how I can say it any other way really.

Sometimes, honestly and truly, kids complain about things which, when investigated, have no foundation.
Here's the key thing: when investigated.

Big difference between listening to a child concerned about their learning or being upset at lesson disruption and investigating Vs deciding they're just NT children who must be whining about someone different to them.

If a student really has been fabricating then it will come out in investigation, however this discussion isn't 'can some kids tell tales'. Almost nobody would argue that kids can tattle tale.

The discussion is what level of ACTUAL disruption is considered acceptable and there's clearly very different ideas of what's reasonable to expect children and parents to tolerate.

I consider the list of things I gave earlier to be entirely reasonable things for students and parents to be concerned about. You don't and decided those examples are children/parents not wanting to sit with someone different.

I don't think it's right for children to be expected to tolerate other children disrupting their learning. If there's a back story or additional needs then that is for the teacher to manage, not decide that the disruption may be happening but the other kids and parents should suck it up.

I'm assuming no one has siblings who like to whine and complain about each other? I imagine it's that sort of thing that rawlikesushi is referring to rather than actual fair enough issues.

well, no. Because Lola posted a long list of the kind of thing that children "whine" to the teacher about which hinders their learning (jiggling the desk constantly, throwing their pencil case on the floor etc etc) and they haven't actually said "yes, that's disruptive I'd put a stop to it". On the contrary they have consistently given the impression that only the 12 SEN pupils in the class are worth listening to or having any of their good attention.

I'm guessing that they are being deliberately holier-than-thee-parents-who-know-nothing and provocative. I would hope that the NT kids in their class get the attention they deserve and are entitled to.

I firmly, for the record, believe in inclusive education and was one of 3 parents in my DC2's class who didn't sign a letter to the education authority where we live when it was introduced. But i don't think it should be at anyone's expense, NT or not. And unfortunately, deliberate or not, that is the impression rawlikesushi is giving. That the NT kids just have to suck it all up.