DD is always put with disruptive children...AIBU to ask her to move?

[peacockfeather11]

Every year this happens and I always try and say nothing because I don't want to be that mother that comes in to school complaining. But this year I am furious! My DD has been put on a table with the most disruptive and she's in tears and I can truly understand. It's too much too ask of her and she's so sensitive she never wants to let the teacher down which I feel is manipulated.

Do I ask the teacher to move her or AIBU?

In fact I will give an example of whining from friday.

We've worked with X to get him to stop drumming his fingers loudly on the desk. It was distracting, annoying and constant.

One strategy is to get him to drum the fingers of one hand against the palm of his other hand - soothing for him, but silent.

The other child must have told me ten times that X was drumming his fingers on his hand. I observed - silent, no movement of the desk, no nudging. I explained why he was doing it, as I have done before. More complaining. How is this impacting him? Show some kindness snd compassion, please. By now X is embarrassed, he was being discreet but now everyone is looking and he's getting upset. He's doing what he's been told to do but he feels like he's done something wrong.

The next day - dad comes in, please move my child, X is disturbing him by drumming his fingers. It's too loud and my child can't do his work. I explain what happened, what is happening, but he doesn't believe me, is insistent.

I will move him but because X deserves better.

"We didnt mention accidentky breaking a pencil or something equally trivial."

I've had children complain about that.

Are you deliberately missing thw point.

If A is wobbling desk so B can't work so B works on their lap so A starts kicking the chair instead is B devided to be whining or justified depending on As back story? Or is B clearly being prevented from working and allowed to speak up about it and actually listened to?

I have a child with ASD who taps his middle finger against his thumb, both hands, in front of his face.

Annoying for whoever sits next to him, they have to ignore it, I guess it's disruptive but I'm sorry they will have to suck it up.

@Whatwouldscullydo

Are you deliberately missing thw point.

If A is wobbling desk so B can't work so B works on their lap so A starts kicking the chair instead is B devided to be whining or justified depending on As back story? Or is B clearly being prevented from working and allowed to speak up about it and actually listened to?

Fucking hell do I have to give a response to every frigging incident ever experienced in any class, anywhere, ever.

Children and parents complain. If fair enough, it's dealt with. If not fair enough, I ignore them. I get to choose because it's my classroom. I think I get it right most of the time.

If you answered the question the first time we wlukdnt have to ask.

Why is As back story relevant when deciding whether or not being prevented from being able to work is worthy of dismissal or being listened to?

How bad does it have to get

Rawlikesushi
So that's an example where the student isn't being disruptive, which isn't what people are talking about.

The question is what level of disruption is it reasonable to expect children and parents to tolerate.

Apparently none of these experiences count:

• rocking table and preventing others from writing
• whispering and talking so others can't hear the teacher
• not doing the work set so when the teacher says do a paired task one child can't do the work properly
• not doing work set in group work so other children have incomplete work
• being silly with shared school equipment
• nudging them when writing
• shouting out loud and irrelevant questions and then laughing whilst asking them
• not doing the work and expecting the partner to let them copy off their work
• when the teacher tells the non-disruptive student to let the disruptive student copy their notes, the disruptive student doesn't do this / makes a bit fuss and during this time the non-disruptive student isn't able to get on with the current task in the lesson
• being told to do peer assessment but the disruptive student doesn't have any work for the non-disruptive student to look at (so sharing ideas is almost nil) and the disruptive student doesn't give any feedback on the non-disruptive student's work so the whole exercise was pointless for both pupils
• expecting the non disruptive student to repeatedly lend their equipment to the disruptive student, who then breaks it
• talking across the room to friends and preventing other students from getting on

All those clearly disruptive behaviours were met with 'cry me a river' and claims that students/parents just don't want to sit next to someone different.

I'm not sure how you've gone from claiming a list of disruptive behaviours are just people whining and not wanting to sit with someone different, to 'here are examples of whining where no disruption had occurred'.

What should parents and children accept before they pass your test?

@Whatwouldscullydo

If you answered the question the first time we wlukdnt have to ask.

Why is As back story relevant when deciding whether or not being prevented from being able to work is worthy of dismissal or being listened to?

How bad does it have to get

A's back story isn't relevant in the very specific scenario you outline.

If that happened every day it's bullying and I've given my thoughts on that.

If it's a one-off I'd follow the behaviour policy.

How I tackle it with B depends whether this is behaviour we've seen before, new behaviour, whether there were triggers or reasons, whether he has a behaviour plan, whether he was beaten by his mum that morning, whether the police were at his house last night and lots of other things - but you and your child wouldn't need to know any of that.

No B would not need to know that.

But B would need to know that he or she doesn't have to put up witg being unable to work until teacher decides it constituted bullying and that they should feel able to speak up ajd not he called a whiner every time the kid who stops her from working has more problems than B does.

Constantly whispering or talking preventing someone from being able to hear
Child A tells teacher "Child B is always talking". Teacher and TA have already been all over child B like paint and can confirm child B spoke twice that morning. Child A told to concentrate, and if they don't hear something, put their hand up. Child A complains to their parents.
Child C tells teacher "Child D is always talking". Teacher knows this to be true and gets on the case. A week later nothing has changed and the teacher moves child D to the end of a row next to a more forceful partner. Things improve.

Can you see how children may misinterpret or indeed just whine about minor things that are unlikely to be affecting them?

Lola

So I'm supposed to type a reply to all 12 of your scenarios?

No, I don't think so.

Almost every one depends on the children, the frequency and the causes.

I've tried really hard to explain, and have stuck with this thread for a long time.

You will always consider me the sort of teacher who allows lovely children to suffer unheard I'm sure but that's ok.

I hope parents of SEN children who might have followed this thread will know that some of us are out there advocating hard.

I hope parents thinking about complaining might stop and give it some thought first.

I hope I've expressed how difficult it is in an overcrowded, mainstream classroom to always avoid disruption, or at least stop it quickly enough for some, that sometimes the best we can do is change the seating plan regularly to dilute the impact.

I hope the stories from parents of disruptive children have touched a few hearts, and the stories from lovely parents of tolerant children forming lasting friendships with challenging peers have too.

I'll never apologise for dismissing kids and parents who are whining about absolutely fuck all and suspect there's a few on here actually.

Like the OP, my daughter is the quiet, compliant child and was often used as a buffer, to her detriment. While sometimes girls were disruptive, it was predominantly the boys who were physically disruptive (throwing, hitting, kicking, poking, etc.). Sometimes when we complained, she was moved to a quieter group which allowed her to be able to focus.

I have empathy for the parents who's disruptive child has SN, but it doesn't matter why, it's the impact that is the problem. If my girlfriend said her DH hit and choked her because he had ADHD and/or a difficult upbringing, I would never tell her to put up with violence. Even if your child has SN that make them aggressive or disruptive, we can empathize with what you are going through, but the non-disruptive children should not have to put up with it.

• rocking table and preventing others from writing

Why is the table wobbly in the first place?

• whispering and talking so others can't hear the teacher

Ignore

• not doing the work set so when the teacher says do a paired task one child can't do the work properly

This is something that goes on throughout life. It's a crappy tough lesson to learn but perhaps it's a good one. Particularily when said kids are rotated.

• not doing work set in group work so other children have incomplete work

As above

• being silly with shared school equipment

Can be ignored.

• nudging them when writing

This needs intervention.

• shouting out loud and irrelevant questions and then laughing whilst asking them

Ignore. Theres actually quite a good comedy sketch by Hannah Gadsvy very relevant here. Many DC with SEN don't physically have impulse control. Literally this weekend my DD had to draw a dog with socks on. 45 minutes later and her mind was beyond blown at the idea of a dog wearing socks. Completely ridiculous on the surface but just how her brain is wired and when she struggles to process it it all comes out

• not doing the work and expecting the partner to let them copy off their work

Perhaps they actually can't do the work?

• when the teacher tells the non-disruptive student to let the disruptive student copy their notes, the disruptive student doesn't do this / makes a bit fuss and during this time the non-disruptive student isn't able to get on with the current task in the lesson

as above

• being told to do peer assessment but the disruptive student doesn't have any work for the non-disruptive student to look at (so sharing ideas is almost nil) and the disruptive student doesn't give any feedback on the non-disruptive student's work so the whole exercise was pointless for both pupils

As above

• expecting the non disruptive student to repeatedly lend their equipment to the disruptive student, who then breaks it

If stuff gets broken then it needs intervention. Perhaps the disruptive child has parents who cant/won't provide the resources

• talking across the room to friends and preventing other students from getting on

Ignore. Surely working and life environments will always have noisy distractions?

Not much is actually that significant. My child can be disruptive. She has SEN. She's lucky she has 1-1 But she literally has no chance of being able to follow the academic or social expectations in class. She wouldn't be able to do work to the same level as her peers. Often kids are disruptive when they know they can't do the work expected. I know it's a big trigger for mine.

I will never forget a lad in my class at school who had been given a crap hand in life and it essentially ended up bullying all the complaints against him. The other kids were vicious at times. He blinked and kids complained.

@rawlikesushi

I have a child with ASD who taps his middle finger against his thumb, both hands, in front of his face.

Annoying for whoever sits next to him, they have to ignore it, I guess it's disruptive but I'm sorry they will have to suck it up.

If he were my office mate, I'd have a difficult time getting my work done. I wouldn't be angry with him if he had ASD, but I'd have to find a different seating arrangement or maybe headphones to get my work done. Not sure why children would be any different...surely they need a calm and quiet environment to learn and do schoolwork. I have family members with ASD and homeschool was the best fit for DN as he wasn't disturbed and his stimming settled. There are also employers now who hire people with ASD and allow them accommodations, including separate workstations. This is a brilliant arrangement for all. Again, not sure why this scenario wouldn't work for children. Funding, I guess.

There isn't the physical space for seperate work stations.

This is a brilliant arrangement for all. Again, not sure why this scenario wouldn't work for children. Funding, I guess.

Funding- yes
Also lots of kids with ASD like the company of other children and don’t want to be segregated and isolated.

So I'm supposed to type a reply to all 12 of your scenarios?
Of course not. I just don't see why explaining how those situations all cause one child's education to be disrupted should be met with 'cry me a river' and claims that those raising those issues just don't want to sit with someone different.

I hope parents of SEN children who might have followed this thread will know that some of us are out there advocating hard
You keep trying to turn this into SEN children Vs everyone else.
It's not about SEN.
It's about lesson disruption and how much children should expect their learning to be disrupted.

In the past (u.s.) , kids who were deaf were forced to separate from their family and go live in a deaf state schools. These kids can be young as 5 if not younger.
They changed it and now these kids can be mainstream.
Then comes along parents who feel all these inclusion is slowing their children down. This include different race in children. When it came to race, they never say it at loud but they always like we need to move to a new district, the school is getting bad with all these crimes.

But no one want to learn from each other. Exposure is the best education. From many researches, people with disabilities did better in mainstream than schools designed for their disability. (Although they do need specialists)

I disagree with a lot of what has been posted on here. And yes I do have a SN child. A difficult child. Plus a very easy one.

I don't care is a child has SEN or not, disruption shouldn't be allowed in the classrooms.

Sometimes it really is schools negligence at dealing with it. Mostly it's a lack of money, funding, TA's, Government and county.

What a mess eh?

Don’t even think twice. My DD was sat with the ‘mean girls’, away from her friends and because they are eating lunch at their desks at the moment she was stuck with them at lunchtime too. I think the fuck not! Had a word with her teacher and she was moved the next day.

We have the same going in with my 10 year old DD at the moment too. She's sitting between two boys (they're in rows) who are friends and then another friend of the boys has been seated infront. The boys are nice enough but they're very chatty with each other, pull silly faces, call out etc. The issue my daughter has is that she's unable to produce work to the best of her ability and is having to help out one boy a lot of the time.
She has asked the teacher on five ocassions if she can move but they have said that the boy she is seated next to is producing the most work he ever has done as he is seated next to her.

Tonorrow she going to ask again if she can move. We're going to showing willing by giving it until the end of the week where hopefully there'll be some seating changes.
I agree it's important to sit next to different children but to be the unpaid TA is not on and just smacks of poor behaviour/ classroom management.
She even called herself a junior teacher which she found funny unlike me.

We’ve experienced this with our eldest. She’s a kind, considerate and smart little girl and has a lovely mix of friends. One girl in her class is autistic and has 1:1 support. She has regular outbursts which can be anything from shouting, getting upset to knocking down models that have been made in class. For good behaviour, she’s awarded Lego time, which is time out of the classroom to build Lego. She gets to choose someone to go with her and for weeks and weeks, if not months, at least once a day, she chose my daughter. It was lovely, but my my daughter started to not want to go as she would rather continue with whatever is happening in the class. We had to ask the teachers to mix it up a bit. They acknowledged that it was just ‘easy’ to pick my daughter as there was little fuss. So, yes, I think it’s important to flag. My daughter having understanding of neurodiversity is very important, but so is her own individual happiness, which comes from a good mix of spending time with her classmate at Lego time, and not feeling like she’s always going to be asked to leave the class and miss out on class time.