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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

DD is always put with disruptive children...AIBU to ask her to move?

498 replies

peacockfeather11 · 02/10/2020 20:24

Every year this happens and I always try and say nothing because I don't want to be that mother that comes in to school complaining. But this year I am furious! My DD has been put on a table with the most disruptive and she's in tears and I can truly understand. It's too much too ask of her and she's so sensitive she never wants to let the teacher down which I feel is manipulated.

Do I ask the teacher to move her or AIBU?

OP posts:
Terrace58 · 03/10/2020 00:30

In the end it doesn’t matter why each kid is the way they are. I don’t think my teachers ever caught on to the fact that I was being abused at home or that sometimes we lived out of our car for a few days so dad could calm down. I was well behaved despite my upbringing so I was expected to fill the buffer role.

It’s really painful to see teachers say that students who have good souls will benefit from the experience and it’s only those nasty, unkind kids who don’t. It’s clear they have no idea what is going on in the minds of those good kids acting as buffers.

It really doesn’t teach you empathy to deal
with someone actively trying to disrupt your learning.

MayIJustAsk · 03/10/2020 00:31

My not by, sorry

rawlikesushi · 03/10/2020 00:32

"She was only interested in dividing the children into victims (children with problems) and the other ones (who only have duty of care towards the victims and if they don't exercise it with humility and infinite patience, they re evil). If you could present your child as a victim, they would be ok."

How weird. Hope she's long retired.

rawlikesushi · 03/10/2020 00:36

"Just don’t spout crap about it being good for the one who is being sacrificed. Admit the truth."

I've never said it was good. I said a turn of a few weeks is rarely detrimental. Frequent seat changes so that nobody is unfairly impacted. There's no alternative. In my class of 33 I have 12 such children. They have to sit somewhere.

VashtaNerada · 03/10/2020 00:36

DS is currently seated with a very disruptive boy with SEN. DS has been amazing with him. He’s been so patient, has tried to include him in playground games etc. He’s had loads of praise from teachers and I couldn’t be more proud. It can work and it does work. The idea of seating all the tricky children together and the sensible children together turns my stomach tbh. There are some stories on here where children have genuinely suffered from bullying or physical attack. But there are also some that are ridiculous. I cringe at the thought of the latter group of parents going to the school to complain.

rawlikesushi · 03/10/2020 00:37

"It really doesn’t teach you empathy to deal
with someone actively trying to disrupt your learning."

I'm open to suggestions.

rawlikesushi · 03/10/2020 00:38

@VashtaNerada

DS is currently seated with a very disruptive boy with SEN. DS has been amazing with him. He’s been so patient, has tried to include him in playground games etc. He’s had loads of praise from teachers and I couldn’t be more proud. It can work and it does work. The idea of seating all the tricky children together and the sensible children together turns my stomach tbh. There are some stories on here where children have genuinely suffered from bullying or physical attack. But there are also some that are ridiculous. I cringe at the thought of the latter group of parents going to the school to complain.
Your boy sounds amazing.
SantaClaritaDiet · 03/10/2020 00:47

"It really doesn’t teach you empathy to deal
*with someone actively trying to disrupt your learning."

I'm open to suggestions.

as above, at least cut the crap about teaching "resilience" and "learning about differences" Hmm and admit like many teachers do in real life, that it's shit but there's no choice and you try to limit the disruption for each child involved by swapping the naughty ones as often as possible.

Pretending that it has no effect on anyone is unprofessional at best. The sad thing is, confident or outspoken kids with a supportive family who have their back and are not afraid to speak up and get things changed will be absolutely fine.

The ones without family support, or just nice kids but a bit shy and really keen on doing well will suffer in silence. No one should brush aside a kid upset enough to cry every night because of a naughty little terror.

rawlikesushi · 03/10/2020 00:52

"as above, at least cut the crap about teaching "resilience" and "learning about differences"

I bow to your superior knowledge. You must have taught in a great many classrooms to know so much about it.

Pheasantplucker2 · 03/10/2020 00:56

This is uncomfortable reading as a parent of a boy with ADHD. I also have a quiet hard working girl (separate year) who often gets put next to disruptive children.

I get that it's hard for your kids. It's hard for my daughter too.

My son does not qualify for any additional funding to support his needs. However,at the moment we are waiting for medication and he is really struggling to be within the confines of class, especially after 6 months out of school.

His school is very short of funds and there is no dedicated TA for his class.

I know the other parents dread their kids being sat next to mine. He is bright but also dyslexic, and those elements combined means that his concentration span is that of a gnat, and unless he is given specific focus by an adult he forgets what he's supposed to be doing and then distracts the person sitting next to him.

I get it, I really do. But I am constantly fighting the system - to get a diagnosis, to get medication, to get help in class, anything. I spend hours with him out of school explaining appropriate behaviour. He wants to be liked and fit in, but his brain is not wired in a way that enables him to make the right decisions in the moment.

He is not indulged, spoilt or allowed a life free of consequences. However, he lacks the impulse control that allows him to make good choices. He also needs to stim constantly to enable him to focus, which, for him, means drumming with his fingers. Irritating as hell to sit next to.

No money for Sen kids like him, the funding (rightly) goes first to the significantly disadvantaged. All of you who are complaining are probably complaining about someone like my child.

But there is no facility available until - frustrated at constant rejection and living in a world he doesn't quite understand - he behaves in a manner that gets him excluded.

We haven't reached that stage yet, because we put in so much work behind the scenes that none of you have to do.

Constant discussions about appropriate behaviour and how to fit in, how to learn effectively, what to do when he is left out of playtime for the hundredth time that week. It's relentless and exhausting. Even if there were more schools for sen, he wouldn't qualify as he's too academically able. You have to be working at least 1-2 years academically below your peers to even be considered for 1-1 funding. Imagine the frustration of being bright but unable to access learning because you are consistently taught in a way you can't work. Lockdown in some ways was a revelation for him, because he could run round the garden or bounce on the trampoline every 10 minutes, and that sensory stimulation gave him the ability to focus. Of course it would be impossible to allow that in a mainstream school.

So he's constantly trying to sit still and focus, which takes up all of his concentration skills. He can't even hear the content of what's being taught because he's thinking "I have to sit still and focus and not pull Pippa's ponytail, pull Pippa's ponytail" reaches out and pulls Pippa's ponytail and bam, he's in trouble again.

He comes out of school like a bottle of coke that has been shaken constantly. You would not believe what I have to deal with as a consequence of him coping to that degree all day. But instead of his Herculean efforts to try to do the right thing being acknowledged, he's told off for the one time he let his concentration slip and irritate the child next to him.

Blame a broken underfunded education system that only can provide one outdated model of learning for the fact that your child is sat next to mine.

But please also show some compassion and understanding of what families and children with "low level" additional needs to through every single day. We are the pariahs of the playground, whispered about and tutted at by parents like you who don't get how much effort we put in behind the scenes.

Behaviour is communication and the children who are "naughty" have back stories you have no idea about.

It's not right for any child to be scared of another child, or be physically hurt by them; I am not minimising the impact of their behaviour at all. But next time you march in to complain, think about me and all the parents like me, who are parenting relentlessly behind the scenes at a level of input luckily your children don't need. And that our kids are constantly viewed as a problem and the effect that has on their mental health and understanding of the world. There's a horrifying statistic about the number of young men in prison with ADHD. It is no wonder. They have no impulse control and have gone through education being told they're constantly in trouble without any support to help them manage this bewildering world. No positive messages in school for them at all.

So you can choose. Hoick up your judgy pants and carry on encouraging your children to complain about our kids and leave them out, or teach them kindness and compassion and understanding. You give them communication skills to say "Harry, I'd really like to play with you at break. I need to concentrate now" and give them a smile of encouragement. Or "please don't pull my hair/kick me under the table. Do you need some help to concentrate?" It might just be as simple as alerting the teacher that he needs time out or a fiddle toy. And yes in an ideal world the teacher would notice, but when they are dealing with a class of 32 with no support they would be delighted to be signposted so they can deal positively too.

Because it's always the child with Sen who is expected to fit in with a neurotypical world, rather than the NT world making accommodation for them.

I don't see my child as disabled, rather that he is constantly in a disabling environment for him. A bit like if your child has a broken leg being forced to play football on it, because they could do it if they try hard enough...

SantaClaritaDiet · 03/10/2020 01:06

rawlikesushi

Even if you are the teacher you pretend to be, and despite your insistence that your opinion is the rule among the teaching profession, it's only one small opinion.

Oswin · 03/10/2020 01:26

@rawlikesushi

"t's funny how you are now derailing the thread and going on about some ideal celebration of difference... whilst we are talking about children coming home depressed or in tears because of the unacceptable behaviour they are forced to accept."

Depressed about being next to the naughty kid for a few weeks in primary school? Really? Like clinically depressed? They'd finish their 'naughty boy' stint before they got to the top of the list at CAMHS.

It depends what you mean by unacceptable behaviour really doesn't it. I've already said that bullying or hurting is unacceptable. What other things are unacceptable to you? Stimming? Swearing? Arguing with the teacher? Refusing to work? Defacing a book? What exactly reduced your kid to tears?

Why have you decided that it's only a few weeks? You can think you are some beacon of empathy and understanding but you have been really shitty towards children who dont want the responsibility.

My dd put up with this for the best part of a year. Her school work dropped. She had a year of him scribbling on her work. Touching her face. Kicking her chair.

When I asked the teacher to maybe have a look at the seating arrangement she sat dd down and gave her the bullshit be kind bollocks. There were plenty of other well behaved children, they wasnt put with him because they were also all pretty gobby and would protest loudly.

The teacher knew my dd would keep quiet. Take all the shit. It wasnt until my dd lost her mind in class after he kept poking her was anything done. Her education suffered.

You know when you put the quiet shy kids in this position they wont speak out. Its shitty.

GlummyMcGlummerson · 03/10/2020 01:28

Do you know what OP, the same has happened to my DD since reception class because she's easy going, strong minded (so she doesn't get upset if they say horrible things), she won't encourage them and is a good egg so counters their behaviour really well.

However as a result I feel that when she's paired with these children her abilities and understanding of work slips. She complains of not being able to hear herself even think because she's at the noisy table etc.

So yes whilst the disruptive kids need to be next to someone it's not fair that one non-disruptive child acts as collateral damage to make the teacher's lives easier. And I say that as a teacher - though I teach sixth formers, who whilst they can be disruptive, are much easier to manage than primary children.

Definitely ask that she moves, I always have, sometimes it's a battle with the teacher but one worth fighting

Terrace58 · 03/10/2020 01:31

A lot of people seem to be missing the fact that many of those quiet well behaved kids being used as buffers aren’t NT either. They can have needs that are just as profound as the children who cause disruptions, but their needs are only met if parents are strong advocates.

We have spent thousands accessing private care for our dd. She has multiple specialists and therapists. I have to be available every day to deal with the potential emotional fallout from the stress of the school day. No one sees any of that because she is extremely bright and well behaved at school, but that doesn’t make her stress any less real.

Bingbongbinglybong · 03/10/2020 01:35

My DD is used in this way constantly. It makes me so angry, my DD doesn't mind, and I have not complained. The whole school has a policy of doing this so complaining would yield nothing. It drags the bright, studious kids down. To add insult to injury, the badly behaved kids are given Headteacher Awards when they simply survive a week without having a meltdown, whereas there is never an award for "putting up with the sh*t from Boy A for the week without stabbing him in the eye with a freshly sharpened pencil".

Last year, she only once got to sit with a girl she got on well with. She is not disruptive, we get glowing reports about her behaviour and it was even written in her school report last year that she is "mini Mrs [teacher's name]." It is brazen.

I don't mind when she is happy with the disruptive partner, but some of the boys in her class are violent when they get frustrated and bored in class. There are at least 2 who appear to have unaddressed behavioural needs. Last week the entire class had to go outside while one of the boys was having a rage.

I am just lucky that this term she has been paired with a "lovable rogue" who she genuinely likes. She stays in during her lunch hour to help him finish his maths, re-explains all the key concepts to him in English. He dotes on her now, so they have become fast friends. If she gets moved away from him to civilised one of the other little turds, I will be going in to school to ask why she can't sit with one of the other quiet girls.

The school bangs on and on and on about mental health, but our girls are forced to suffer through this crap all day, every day feeling miserable, while the boys just run amok.

I am a mum to a boy too, but I would want to know if he was uncontrollable and not focused in class and I'd address that. It's unacceptable for the discipline to be so slack that our girls' education is marred by this. Makes me so angry.

echt · 03/10/2020 03:24

A lot of people seem to be missing the fact that many of those quiet well behaved kids being used as buffers aren’t NT either. They can have needs that are just as profound as the children who cause disruptions, but their needs are only met if parents are strong advocates.

That is not the OP's point.

ispepsiokay · 03/10/2020 03:25

Definitely ask, my DD2 was always placed with certain children as she was well behaved and she hated it, it got to a point she was forced to play with a child at every break who would constantly try to kiss her and insist she was his girlfriend, a proper conversation with the teacher and it was sorted

rawlikesushi · 03/10/2020 05:42

@SantaClaritaDiet

rawlikesushi

Even if you are the teacher you pretend to be, and despite your insistence that your opinion is the rule among the teaching profession, it's only one small opinion.

Never said otherwise.
rawlikesushi · 03/10/2020 05:50

"Why have you decided that it's only a few weeks? You can think you are some beacon of empathy and understanding but you have been really shitty towards children who dont want the responsibility."

No, I've said that children should be moved around regularly so that nobody sits next to a disruptive child for more than a few weeks, a half term at most. If your child has been sitting next to a disruptive child for longer than that, and isn't happy, I'd support a request to move.

Sometimes the pairing works really well. You can see that it does. They chat and laugh together, seek each other out at playtime, choose to work together when it's optional, no complaints from either party, but the arsehole parent comes in to complain because they're not happy - usually some minor incident has been trumped up.

rawlikesushi · 03/10/2020 05:59

@ispepsiokay

Definitely ask, my DD2 was always placed with certain children as she was well behaved and she hated it, it got to a point she was forced to play with a child at every break who would constantly try to kiss her and insist she was his girlfriend, a proper conversation with the teacher and it was sorted
I've had this.

I asked for volunteers, nice child volunteered, seemed really happy on the playground together. Mum came in and said her child was having sleepless nights about it. When I told the child he wouldn't be one of X's playground buddies any more, he cried and begged to be allowed to continue. He said he'd woken up in the night once, worried that he'd left his Diablo on the playground. They still gravitated together every playtime, mum kept complaining. What an arse she was.

seayork2020 · 03/10/2020 06:06

I am not sure if my son is disruptive in class or well behaved (his school reports don't particularly state either way but he is now in secondary school) he has sat with different kids and the classes have been moved around and in different ways

MN seems to have a lot of well behaved kids though.

If he sits next to kids that he has that much trouble with i would contact the school but he has been told he is responsible for his behaviour.

squeekums · 03/10/2020 06:10

I doubt there's much actual sacrifice involved tbh.
And not a random, a classmate.
When its putting a kid in tears, its sacrificing their mental health
When the disruptive kid is taking the quiet kids attention away from their work, thats a sacrifice to their education.

Oh and i can tell you, kids in class aint all mates, thats a nice term for kids lumped together due to age and location, NOTHING more.

Id ask, if nothing, then demand dd got moved. Why should she be used as a teachers aid just cos she quiet and calm? Why should her work and possibly mental health suffer?
I have no issues being that parent. I AM that parent, i know what its like to have a parent not stand up for you at school. No way will dd get that from me

rawlikesushi · 03/10/2020 06:11

" The whole school has a policy of doing this so complaining would yield nothing."

Ask to see their policy. I doubt they'll be able to produce one because their won't be one, you're making it up.

"To add insult to injury, the badly behaved kids are given Headteacher Awards when they simply survive a week without having a meltdown"

Yes, Headteacher Awards are to reward but also to recognise and encourage wanted behaviour. Rewarding an ASD child for not having a meltdown can be part of a process that yields results for everyone in the class.

"I don't mind when she is happy with the disruptive partner, but some of the boys in her class are violent when they get frustrated and bored in class. There are at least 2 who appear to have unaddressed behavioural needs."

You don't know that it's unaddressed and I doubt that there is nothing going on behind the scenes to support those children, you just wouldn't know about it.

"If she gets moved away from him to civilised one of the other little turds,"

I could tell you stories that would break your heart, if you've got one.

"The school bangs on and on and on about mental health, but our girls are forced to suffer through this crap all day, every day feeling miserable, while the boys just run amok."

Your girls shouldn't be seated next to someone disruptive for more than a few weeks. If you are talking about a child disrupting his/her whole class sometimes then yes that can happen with complex needs. I doubt they run amok, you just wouldn't know what outside agencies are involved or what strategies are in place.

ispepsiokay · 03/10/2020 06:11

@rawlikesushi if she'd volunteered for it then I would've been fine with it, she absolutely didn't volunteer for it (neither did she ask for the unwanted kisses and teasing that went with it) and never went anyway near the other child again once she wasn't forced to.

In this incident I was definitely not an arse if a parent and my own child's mental health improved greatly.

Would you force a child to assist another that constantly kissed and grabbed at her, because I'd think you were an arsed of a teacher (as that teacher was) if that's the case.

MsTSwift · 03/10/2020 06:13

I only realised what was going on when I helped on a trip tbh. Dd took it as normal that she missed whole chunks of lessons and a lunchtime activity she enjoyed to assist another child. For the best part of a year. It suited school (under funded TA not always available) and the other child’s parents who were extremely vocal and pushy about their child’s needs. Which I sympathise with. Using dd as an unpaid support worker suited everyone else involved in the situation beautifully. When I raised it politely the head immediately apologised and it stopped. They knew what they were doing.