DD is always put with disruptive children...AIBU to ask her to move?

[peacockfeather11]

Every year this happens and I always try and say nothing because I don't want to be that mother that comes in to school complaining. But this year I am furious! My DD has been put on a table with the most disruptive and she's in tears and I can truly understand. It's too much too ask of her and she's so sensitive she never wants to let the teacher down which I feel is manipulated.

Do I ask the teacher to move her or AIBU?

@LolaSmiles

I hope the whole balancing thing is never as simple as naughty and good. I teach high school and try to make sure plans work and happily my learners can usually articulate how they feel if they don’t like where they end up. Same here.

Though apparently this would make some of my students 'whiny'. I'd hate for my DC to be in a situation where they felt they couldn't speak to a teacher for fear of being dismissed or told to put up with disruption.

I'd be really annoyed as a parent (and teacher) I found my child had been dismissed as whiny for wanting to get on with their work.

As a teacher, you must know that some kids are whiny surely?

I'm staggered. Maybe it's only in primary.

rawlikesushi
It's writing students off if you're accepting that's just how some students behave and other children should suck it up.

It's also telling other children in the clas stheir education doesn't matter as much and they're just 'whiny' for wanting it learn.

Though I am loving how you're now pushing the SEND / other agencies involved angle now, despite the fact that not all disruptive students have additional needs. It feels remarkably like you're trying to shift the goalposts a bit after you've argued repeatedly that students should put up with disruption as long as there's no physical harm or bullying.

As a teacher, you must know that some kids are whiny surely?
Some students can whine.

The difference between you and I is that I don't consider it whiny for a student to want to get on with their work.
I don't consider it whiny for a student to want to participate fully in the lesson.
I don't consider it whiny for a parent to express concerns if their child's education is being repeatedly disrupted.

You and I have very different ideas of whining.

@Starlightstarbright1

Classroom management is really difficult.

Op if your Dc are suffering yes talk to the teacher.

However i will also add to the thread that the likelihood of children with additional needs in the class is high, echp's are regularly refused.

The year before my ds was diagnosed with adhd a difficult child to manage- sitting on his own didn't work - teacher said he would get up and disturb the whole classroom, he was sat next to the next disriptive child - he also found other biy distracted him more so probably distracted the class more.
He wasn't aggressive, a bully or naughty but he was really struggling in school.

I think what is really lacking from this thread that for my ds it was difficult, he felt upset when in trouble, didn't understand why he couldn't behave like the other children, he actually wanted to learn.

Teachers are been asked to manage lots of challenging children with in many circumstances definitely not enough Ta support in the classroom.

My ds is now medicated and much calmer in the classroom however he also can feel upset, find it difficult to get on with his work if he feels he is in the wrong seat.. try putting that in a seating plan.

I actually think the parents of the quiet hard workibg kids don't actually care, they woukd have the more challenging children just given up on and removedfrom the class given this is actually very sad given most if these discussions are on primary school children

Yes - there’s a lot of educational NIMBYism here, isn’t there?

Yes - there’s a lot of educational NIMBYism here, isn’t there?

Not really.
Thinking that teachers shouldn't accept children's education being hindered isn't NIMBYism.

There's a world of difference between a teacher using a range of strategies, including following a behaviour policy that allows everyone to learn, and saying that the same quiet children should routinely be sat next to disruptive students.

It's even worse if the teacher then tries to argue it's for the good of the quieter child. How is it for the benefit of a quiet child to be placed next to a routinely disruptive student whilst the teacher turns a blind eye to the disruption, safe in the knowledge that the quiet child is unlikely to say anything?

When it comes to behaviour some people can be quick to confuse SEND and poor behaviour. Not all children with SEN display challenging behaviour and not all disruptive students have SEN.

"It's writing students off if you're accepting that's just how some students behave and other children should suck it up."

Yes it is how some kids behave, it is not always possible for them to stop some behaviours - vestibular feedback can be important to children with ASD for example.

Or there might be strategies in place to stop them shouting out or kicking the table but they take time to work.

"It's also telling other children in the clas stheir education doesn't matter as much and they're just 'whiny' for wanting it learn."

No, it's creating an inclusive and supportive classroom where everyone understands that their needs do not trump someone else's. I hope my classroom is purposeful and happy. I think that it is.

"Though I am loving how you're now pushing the SEND / other agencies involved angle now, despite the fact that not all disruptive students have additional needs."

I've talked many times about the reasons for disruptive behaviours, from the beginning of this thread.

"It feels remarkably like you're trying to shift the goalposts a bit after you've argued repeatedly that students should put up with disruption as long as there's no physical harm or bullying."

No, physical harm or bullying are zero tolerance. Other behaviours I'd need to consider the context.

"The difference between you and I is that I don't consider it whiny for a student to want to get on with their work.
I don't consider it whiny for a student to want to participate fully in the lesson.
I don't consider it whiny for a parent to express concerns if their child's education is being repeatedly disrupted.

You and I have very different ideas of whining."

I don't think any of those things either.

It's even worse if the teacher then tries to argue it's for the good of the quieter child. How is it for the benefit of a quiet child to be placed next to a routinely disruptive student whilst the teacher turns a blind eye to the disruption, safe in the knowledge that the quiet child is unlikely to say anything?

Yes its all completely contradictory realky. One minute the classroom is well managed and disruption not tolerated. the next the seating plans are revised every few weeks insinuating that actually there are some effects on the other children . Disruption isn't tolerated except its acceptable to disrupt a child if they aren't violent and any parents that doesn't agree are whiny arseholes and having your pen nicked won't hinder your education in fact its beneficial you might learn something. And not wanting your child to absorb the bad behaviour that's not being dealt with means that you don't want any SN child in the class

"It's even worse if the teacher then tries to argue it's for the good of the quieter child. How is it for the benefit of a quiet child to be placed next to a routinely disruptive student whilst the teacher turns a blind eye to the disruption, safe in the knowledge that the quiet child is unlikely to say anything? "

This sort of diagonal pairing is shown to be beneficial to the weaker student and not be detrimental to the stronger student. I'd certainly expect regular movement of the seating plan so no one child is impacted disproportionately.

No teacher turns a blind eye to disruption but parents and pupils may not always be aware of the strategies in place.

At my son's PRU half the pupils have EHCPs. I'm astonished it isn't all of them. By definition they need extra help to progress.
What many posters are also failing to grasp is that by putting disruptive children together or next to a child who doesn't improve their behaviour, their child will also be impacted.
Two children who wobble tables together - everyone has to put up with it.
One that does on purpose next to a strong willed child with good ignoring skills - they give up as they aren't getting a reaction.
One that does but absent mindedly next to a calm child "Jack you're wobbling again" "oops sorry".
All quiet and another child sits there after half term

Mmm most of my students don’t whine. Some are very very troubled, others very naughty, lots with SEN no one will ever diagnose or fund support for but generally non of them whine largely because they are heard so instead they talk.

What many posters are also failing to grasp is that by putting disruptive children together or next to a child who doesn't improve their behaviour, their child will also be impacted.
Two children who wobble tables together - everyone has to put up with it.
One that does on purpose next to a strong willed child with good ignoring skills - they give up as they aren't getting a reaction.
One that does but absent mindedly next to a calm child "Jack you're wobbling again" "oops sorry".
But none of those examples are quiet compliant children who are selected because they'll not speak up, assuming the strong willed child who ignores is strong willed enough and confident enough to tell the teacher if there's an issue. It's often those quiet, compliant (usually) girls who are selected. Add into the fact that some teachers consider it 'whining' to say your learning is being disrupted / it's 'good' for a child to be sat next to a disruptive student, and it's really easy to see how the message that's conveyed is 'sit down, don't annoy me, put up with the disruption'.

The vast majority of teachers I know manage just fine designing seating plans that match their classes and they manage without expecting students to put up with disruption. If they can manage it then there's no reason for other teachers thinking it's acceptable to consider children caring about their education to be whining.

Our seating plans have to be shared with the powers above, we have to seat PP students next to non pupilPremium (85% are PP so this in itself is impossible), EAL next to non EAL ( again impossible) CAT band A Next to CAT BAND D ( we don’t have any CAT BAND As, ok I lie maybe 5 in a year group of 270). We have to have their SN on our plans, and their target grade.....! So a lot of thought goes into our plans!

"The vast majority of teachers I know manage just fine designing seating plans that match their classes and they manage without expecting students to put up with disruption. If they can manage it then there's no reason for other teachers thinking it's acceptable to consider children caring about their education to be whining."

I don't consider children caring about their education to be whining.

I want children to care about their education.

I had to do this within a week of my oldest going back last year and no I don’t care that the child had additional needs. I cared that my child was coming home crying, injured and was scared to go back to school. The two boys actually get on as friends outside of school and play Xbox together etc but in a class room his horrible.

So I went into school and listed every single insistent and injury in the 5 schools days and told them they where failing in their duty of care to my child who was now too scared to come into school. Seating plan was changed for the Monday. The teacher was actually quite upset when she saw how extensive the list was. My child was the quite child knew the answers but wouldn’t but their hand up because too shy.

I don't consider children caring about their education to be whining.

I see, they can care about their education as long caring about their education doesn't involve troubling you by mentioning that their education is being disrupted because that's whining.

After all it's totally fine to expect children to accept their learning being disrupted as long as there is no physical harm or bullying.

@LolaSmiles

I don't consider children caring about their education to be whining.

I see, they can care about their education as long caring about their education doesn't involve troubling you by mentioning that their education is being disrupted because that's whining.

After all it's totally fine to expect children to accept their learning being disrupted as long as there is no physical harm or bullying.

It depends what they claim is disrupting their education.

"After all it's totally fine to expect children to accept their learning being disrupted as long as there is no physical harm or bullying."

Zero tolerance on bullying and physical harm.

Anything else I'd have to consider the context.

Yanbu

There's 39 weeks in a school year. In a class of 30 that should be 2 weeks tops Imo half a term is sometimes too long to expect the kids who act as buffers to tolerate things (and for the tolerated child to knowingly sit with someone who they probably know would rather sit anywhere but there) Even changing seats after lunch would help (I realise that Covid makes this hard this school year but on normal years it could be used)

I'd also like to add that quiet boys are also used as buffers and used to make up for the lack of adult attention available in the classroom thanks to government funding and it's unacceptable that these kids have to get to boiling point and need a parent to advocate for them.

I'm shocked that it's whining if you complain that the person next you is hindering your learning if they aren't beinb physical My kids are secondary so usually get a break from that next period but primary school kids have to put up with that for half a term unless a parent intervenes?

"I'm shocked that it's whining if you complain that the person next you is hindering your learning if they aren't beinb physical."

You'd be surprised by what little children can consider 'hindering learning.'

All children deserve to feel safe at school I would never ever say anything other than that.
There seems however to be a bit of a primary / secondary divide on experience in here. Is that possibly due to resources in smaller schools/ how long it takes to get to support for children for those children that desperately need it etc
It is not acceptable and it should be so much quicker to get the right support ( round here it prob takes 2 years ) but schools are often firefighting with limited resources. It’s absolutely not ok and I agree that things like rotating students and employing appropriate strategies etc is vital but sometimes more support is needed and it’s just not available due to schools being so poorly funded.

I know what the teacher is doing, your daughter well mannered that they probably feel they are better behaved this way. And their class is less likely to be interrupted. Which is what you want BUT I would ask the teacher if they would be careful who they choose, your daughter doesn’t deserve this , and at least give her a break during the school year.

I had a friend who always had to sit next to me. I am deaf, I guess they like it that she encouraged me to write and talk. But I highly doubt she likes it. I never talk to her since because she never bother to make sure we stay in touch.

Rawlikesushi

What would be your reaction if Jane came up to you and said “I can’t concentrate or write properly because John is shaking the table all day”?

That's easy raw would just tell Jane to stop whining and that she should be grateful for the opportunity to grow into a better person. Meanwhile the other Jane's in the class would be making a mental note that they just have to put up and shut up when it's their turn to be the support child. After all, what's half a term of not being able to concentrate on your work.