DD is always put with disruptive children...AIBU to ask her to move?

[peacockfeather11]

Every year this happens and I always try and say nothing because I don't want to be that mother that comes in to school complaining. But this year I am furious! My DD has been put on a table with the most disruptive and she's in tears and I can truly understand. It's too much too ask of her and she's so sensitive she never wants to let the teacher down which I feel is manipulated.

Do I ask the teacher to move her or AIBU?

What would you do? Remember 30 children in class with seats for 30, places rotated. You have been using all strategies suggested by sendco, there are no additional adults.
Again not saying it’s ok but I think some people are getting angry with the wrong people.

I think everyone is angry at the hugley insufficient funding and support available.

But I think its also understandable that people are angry that teachers can flat out deny the issues and infact blame the children for not putting up wiith enough and being grateful they werent thumped.

I mean we are all on the same page regarding education funding. The problem is the audacity to make out that anyone who has a problem with clearly disruptive and often deliberately so, behaviour is nothing more than a whiney arsehole

I think it’s pretty rare that teachers are doing that. The vast majority are doing their very best with limited funds and support, and just don’t have answers to give parents. I am a parent too so completely understand both perspectives just trying to put across another perspective to people who assume it’s just lazy teaching ( which I have definitely seen said on this thread) .

We have have one this thread though.

Someone teaching kids that they shut up and take it or are intolerant whiny arseholes.

I mean at least admit its a problem amd don't pretend its in anyway beneficial to any of the kids.

But that’s just one person, I have definitely seen more suggesting that teachers are lazy for not sorting the problem. It’s not ok at all but don’t suggest it’s lots of teachers but I really don’t think it is.

I think everyone is angry at the hugley insufficient funding and support available.

But I think its also understandable that people are angry that teachers can flat out deny the issues and infact blame the children for not putting up wiith enough and being grateful they werent thumped.

"I mean we are all on the same page regarding education funding. The problem is the audacity to make out that anyone who has a problem with clearly disruptive and often deliberately so, behaviour is nothing more than a whiney arsehole*
This.

What's really interesting is that being in a secondary school the students see multiple teachers and it's amazing how some of the students manage to behave/misbehave depending on which teacher is teaching them, no additional agencies required, no SEN etc.

The students are also quite willing to talk about things so it's quite funny hearing the students share what happened in Maths when Mrs/Mr Blogs in Maths sits in the staffroom feeling smug that they've got the students on side, don't have behaviour issues, never have behaviour points because they 'get' the students etc. It's also interesting to see how little respect middle of the road and we'll behaved students have for the teachers who insist on spending most of the time allowing poor behaviour. I've regularly had students get their timetable in year 10 and be pleased they've got the firm and fair teachers, and gutted if they've got other staff who are more permissive. One year a student summed it up brilliantly as something like 'They're alright in Year 8 and 9 because it's a laugh and nobody cares but you want a decent teacher for GCSE'.

I actually think its equally worrying that parents applaud it congratulate themselves and n how wonderfully inclusive it is and how proud they are if their kids. Almost like its a badge of honor to tolerate extreme behaviour.

The truth is kids will do their best to do what you tell them. Even if that's not necessarily whats best for them its not either or. I mean you can speak up for your chikd and say its not acceptable ajd he fully supportive of inclusion in the classroom. I mean its possible isnt it? To push for whats best for both without it being a choice between having your child pushed to the limits tolerating everything up to the point of being assulted without expecting any kid who needs help to he thriwn out the class room. Thats not what about us want at all but we do need to strike a balance between tolerance and bekng a doormat. Especially with girls who are at huge risk if their boundries are completely ignored in favour if pleasing others

"That's easy raw would just tell Jane to stop whining and that she should be grateful for the opportunity to grow into a better person."

No I wouldn't.

"What would be your reaction if Jane came up to you and said “I can’t concentrate or write properly because John is shaking the table all day”?

It would depend on why he was doing it. Children with ASD often display repetitive behaviours to self-stimulate or self-soothe. A NT child is unlikely to have the energy or the will to shake a table all day. I'd be looking for triggers, redirecting, rewarding wanted behaviours, social stories depending on age, building agreed times into their day for self-stimulation and so on.

if they stopped when requested, I would use all of the above strategies and more to work towards completely replacing such a non-functional behaviour with something more purposeful.

If they were not yet able to stop when reminded to do so, that child would have to be seated alone as no partner could be expected to tolerate that.

Actually my 14 year old took it on herself to email the teacher to ask to move as she was placed in between two - how to say in pc way - less academic- girls who talked and pissed about all lesson so she couldn’t concentrate. To be fair this is first time she has experienced this at her school as she’s top set but as it’s gcse this class not setted.

He moved her immediately. Guess that makes her an arsehole 🙄 .

If they were not yet able to stop when reminded to do so, that child would have to be seated alone as no partner could be expected to tolerate that
So now you're saying that no child should be expected to tolerate disruption.
But up thread they were whiny for wanting to learn free of disruption.🤷‍♀️

You're still choosing to present disruptive behaviour as a SEN need because 'no NT' student would keep it up. There's selective goalpost changing in the latter part of this thread where you're trying to turn this into 'nobody wants their hold sitting next to a child with SEN'.

Most students don't have SEN. Lesson disruption still occurs.

Are children still whiny for wanting to learn instead of having to have their education disrupted? After all, your own threshold was it's fine, good for them to put up with, and if there's no bullying or physical harm then they're just whining.

It’s all very prodigal son with this type of teacher isn’t it? The difficult child that improves with help is the one this type of teacher adores - the average ones who were just compliant all along don’t interest them and are “whiny“ if they dare to complain about the favourites.

" He moved her immediately. Guess that makes her an arsehole 🙄 "

I don't think so, no.

MsTSwift
It very much is.

The same is true offline unfortunately. Other children are expected to have their education routinely disrupted so the teacher can pat themselves on the back.

If we look at rawlikesushi's update, they've now said that they would move a student away from a disruptive student because it's wrong for their education to be disrupted, but that's only after they've decided the child isn't whiny and the only time a child counts as not being whiny is when Raw gets to the end of all her strategies for the disruptive child (who may be entirely NT, though she's choosing to take the disruptive behaviour= SEN approach). Only at that point is moving an option, though up thread it was suggested that there's no way of moving students away from disruptive students. When I listed all the ways that a child's education can be hindered without hitting Raw's threshold of physical harm or bullying I was told 'cry me a river'.

One of my former colleagues said they'd like to ban the term 'low level disruption' because it's just lesson disruption. Imagine you're in a secondary with a C1/2/3/4 system. For one child being disruptive:
Disruption 1: some redirects
Disruption 2: a warning
Disruption 3: a C1 is issued and recorded
Disruption 4: a C2 is issued and recorded and a classroom based intervention night happen here
Disruption 5: C3 is issued and recorded. The student usually is asked to step outside to focus and the teacher has to leave the lesson to speak to the student
Disruption 6: C4 is issued and the student is removed from the class.

For one student alone that's everyone's education being interrupted 6 times in one lesson, not including all the time that the teacher will be deploying their good quality teaching strategies to focus on that one child. For those next to the disruptive child the impact will likely be bigger. If there's several students then that's an even bigger impact.

If you're in a class where the school behaviour policy isn't clear and/or the class teacher has decided their ego is more important than following it (which happens), then your learning gets even more disrupted.

The only person who is 'winning' is the teacher who can tell themselves how great they are because neither the disruptive student, nor the class are winning in this situation.

Was curious so just googled and around 15% of children are identified as having SEN, so whilst that is not most children that is a significant percentage. I think most teachers want to do the best for all children, and the problem is sometimes as a parent you obvious put your child’s interest first but teachers are balancing the needs of 30.

However as I already stated as children should be safe at school.
I think what I have issue with it the idea that teachers are lazy because they can not stop all disruptive behaviour. I have also seen a lot of “ move them next to someone else” , which just makes it some one else’s problem, and doesn’t solve the problem either.

What is needed is better funding and training for adults in school but doesn’t look like that is happening anything soon. Smaller class sizes, less cramped classroom, more adults support would all make a massive difference. Support from local authorities and outside agencies etc

I would never disagree that children are being failed though and should not have to put up with it.

Lola

I've talked about SEN, diagnosed and undiagnosed, as the main cause for challenging behaviours in primary schools from the start of this thread.

I have made it clear that there is absolutely no tolerance whatsoever for bullying or physical harm, but other complaints would depend on the context.

I maintain that some children are whiny and some parents are entitled arseholes.

Most people, in their jobs, would concede that some of their clients, customers, whatever are a pain in the arse. Teaching is no different. Teachers can be professional and do their jobs just fine whilst still privately thinking that some children are whiny and some parents are arseholes.

If you disagree, and think that anything a primary-aged child complains about must be serious, valued and important then I'm afraid you are wrong. If you think that every parent who ever appears in a classroom doorway asking for their child to be moved is reasonable, again you are wrong.

"but that's only after they've decided the child isn't whiny."

Yes I would certainly investigate to make sure that the child complaining had a legitimate cause for complaint.

I am not in the habit of rearranging my classroom or punishing children on a child's say-so. Or even a parent's for that matter.

Let’s face it the majority of people have proven that they do not want to pay more into education.
I get that. It is a parents job to model good and expected forms of behaviour to their child.
There are some shit parents about and quite frankly I wonder why a lot of people choose to have children. The way they shout and scream at them, can’t be bothered to interact with them, plonk them in front of a screen, don’t show them love, don’t educate them etc etc.
They think it’s someone else’s job to educate them and show them how to act appropriately
Then we have the wishy washy weak and ineffective behavioural policies in schools. Children and young people need to have clear consistent boundaries. Schools target the compliant pupils with the parents who won’t complain. They avoid antagonising the trouble causers knowing their aggressive parents will storm into school causing more havoc.
Discipline needs restoring on schools. Parents need to be told of little Johnny misbehaves then he is going to get a severe bollocking full stop.
Comparing the behaviour of customers in say a restaurant to that of pupils in schools is wrong.
There isn’t a place anywhere which accepts the behaviour school staff are expected to tolerate.

^^Schools target the compliant pupils with the parents who won’t complain. They avoid antagonising the trouble causers knowing their aggressive parents will storm into school causing more havoc.
Discipline needs restoring on schools. Parents need to be told of little Johnny misbehaves then he is going to get a severe bollocking full stop.

^^ this is so true

There isn’t a place anywhere which accepts the behaviour school staff are expected to tolerate.

There have been other threads on MN, which basically seem to conclude that anybody who works in a customer facing role, receives abuse. Retail, nursing, A & E, care, the police and social work spring to mind. (Policeman shot last week)

Ime, specialist care for people with learning disabilities and challenging behaviour!

Yes I would certainly investigate to make sure that the child complaining had a legitimate cause for complaint.

I am not in the habit of rearranging my classroom or punishing children on a child's say-so. Or even a parent's for that matter

Yet your idea of a legitimate cause for complaint doesn't include lesson disruption because children expressing they are struggling to learn due to someone else's behaviour is 'whiny'.

From page 13:
Me:
Over the course of a school day, Child A's education could be disrupted by the following:
Can't hear the teacher because B was whispering

• struggling to concentrate because B was playing with their pencil case, tapping pencils, sucking a pen lid so it whistles quietly
• the teacher says to discuss a question with their partner, but B hadn't done the task so A had nobody to speak to to share ideas (all the other children had a chance to share ideas)
• teacher asks for feedback from pairs and when B can't give an answer, the pair are told they should have done the task better. It's not A's fault though, but they get the blame too.
• B is kicking the table leg when A is trying to write
• B nudges them whilst writing
• The class have moved on but because B doesn't have the first part of the notes they expect A to let them copy
• Teacher tells A to let B copy their notes because B doesn't have anything written down. A loses 10 minutes of a 20 minutes task doing nothing because B doesn't quickly copy them down.
• There's group work where the teacher assigns each person in a group of 4 a task. The whole group has part of the task missing because B didn't do their bit.
• B turns around and is distracting their mates nearby and A is caught in the cross fire
• When the teacher circulates the room, B decides they 'don't get it' and A is subjected to performative stupidity whilst B thinks they are hilarious for showing how little they know
• The teacher says the students have to do some peer assessment (because it can be beneficial to share work and it's a valid strategy when used well). Unfortunately, A doesn't get peer feedback because B can't be bothered to do it properly and hasn't paid attention. A also doesn't learn anything from looking at B's work because they've hardly done anything.
• B doesn't have equipment but the teacher expects A to lend B a pen.
• A doesn't get her own back because B has dismantled it and chewed the lid.
• Later in the day A is expected to allow B to share their calculator in maths, which means they have to move at a slower pace
• When there's shared school equipment B is silly with it, but the teacher manages to have selective blindness because at least B isn't being disruptive.
• By last lesson, A finally has enough and tells B to "shut up". A gets sent out and a behaviour point for being disruptive. A is told they have to apologize to B because B assures the teacher that they were 'just asking a question'.

No bullying there, no violence to A, but a hell of a big impact on A's education.

Your response?

For a few weeks before the seating plan changes. Cry me a river. You're not interested in anything other than your child not having to take their turn next to a child you don't like.

Go on then, what exactly isn't a legitimate concern here.
In the last page you've gone from calling parents and children whiny for wanting to learn without disruption, saying they should get over the disruption as long as there's no bullying or violence, and saying objecting to the disruption I outlined was just not wanting to sit next to someone they don't like, to suddenly claiming that children shouldn't have to be disrupted... But only if they've proven to you that there's really an issue.

Given my list above doesn't count as an issue to you, what is an acceptable level of disruption to raise with you?

Do people honestly think it would be better to seat all the disruptive children together in the classroom? How much work do you think anyone would get done then?

From long experience and I am a grandparent carer now, get your child moved. Don't wait til half term, being compliant. Your dd only has you to speak up for her.

With my own girls, the primary school originally had a room where a certain group of children were taught separately. It was dressed up as an advantage but the reality was far different. It was an unmitigated disaster.

Years later with my gc's a new head tried to reimpose this. The same with another group who sat at the "top" table and other children were allowed to stagnate in the middle. Those parents talked round at a meeting as it being a positive soon moved their children.

How dare the school essentially use your dd to calm or dilute a difficult group. My gc1 had a school trip where he was placed in a room with "difficult" pupils and the teacher told him he had to help ensure they behaved. I was paying a lot of money for him to relax, enjoy and educate himself not act as a bouncer for the staff member.

I moved gc2 because he "wasn't thriving" in this school and he didn't look back. Sorry for the rant, but this sort of thing is down to poor leadership, a top down problem. He went to a more urban school with its problems, but I wholeheartedly commend the staff there.

Do people honestly think it would be better to seat all the disruptive children together in the classroom? How much work do you think anyone would get done then?
No, I think teachers should use a range of strategies and they absolutely should not be seating disruptive students next to quiet and compliant children who are unlikely to complain, either because of their nature or because they've seen quite clearly that the teacher things it's the role of students to put up with poor behaviour.

In a class of 30 why are the quiet and compliant children routinely burdened with poor behaviour from other students when there's highly likely to be a multitude of seating options?

I feel the same when instead of appropriately challenging work for able students they get routinely used as teaching assistants. There's a time and a place for peer to peer support and it's a strategy I use sparingly, but there are parents who find their DC whiz through work and find their DC is expected to go around helping the class.

Children are there to learn, not tolerate poor behaviour and be an additional teaching assistant to benefit the teacher, and I will support any parent who calls me with concerns either of those things are happening (by assessing the situation with class teachers to establish what's going on, and if the parent is correct then I will back them in pushing for a change).

"In a class of 30 why are the quiet and compliant children routinely burdened with poor behaviour from other students when there's highly likely to be a multitude of seating options?"

Because if you've got, say, four children who exhibit unwanted behaviour, and you move everybody around every half term, 24 children will sit next to one of those children at some point.

Because if you've got, say, four children who exhibit unwanted behaviour, and you move everybody around every half term, 24 children will sit next to one of those children at some point

How long does this all go on for befire you twig its not working ?

I mean ( and I'm talking about regular nt kids here before you start trying to direct us back to SN to excuse doing nothing and blame everyone else for being arseholes and not putting up with it) it's usually the same kids in yr as it was in yr 2. After years of expecting them to learn how to behave via osmosis and allowing them to disrupt every kid on the rota every few weeks for years , I mean when do you realise all you have done is repeat strategies that aren't working and are about to palm it all off onto the secondary school teachers ?