DD is always put with disruptive children...AIBU to ask her to move?

[peacockfeather11]

Every year this happens and I always try and say nothing because I don't want to be that mother that comes in to school complaining. But this year I am furious! My DD has been put on a table with the most disruptive and she's in tears and I can truly understand. It's too much too ask of her and she's so sensitive she never wants to let the teacher down which I feel is manipulated.

Do I ask the teacher to move her or AIBU?

And in fact couldn't many of the quiet compliant kids you expect to absorb it all also could have un DX needs of their own which doesn't seem to matter if they aren't struggling in the right way

@Whatwouldscullydo

Didn't lola just explain?

Certainly many of thee kids who's parents were always being spoken to in the play ground ( or the parents themselves discussing the incidents) were the same ones who were taking about their kids detentions or c1s and phone calls I Yr 7.

They all appear to have settled down now and are doing well.

Which is what lola was saying.

There will always be some with struggles who will continue to struggle but you seem to think that they all have SN and all children work SN are disruptive which actually is untrue because neither of my dds have ever come home complaining about children who clearly have SN. Its been the children lola is talking about who get sorted out in a few weeks in Yr 7.

Some children will have SEN or troubled histories that neither you nor your daughters will ever know about.

Some children will mature, receive a diagnosis, get to the top of the waiting list for counselling, whatever, and learn to make better choices at secondary school.

Are you the sort of parent who thinks you could do a better job than the teachers, that we just have to be a bit stricter? You sound naive and ill-informed. I think you'd be in the 'arse' category at my school.

My DD was shoved over on the stairs and trodden on it im.am are for wanting that kid no where frickin near her?

OK.

You actually don't care about the other kids do you.

@Whatwouldscullydo

And in fact couldn't many of the quiet compliant kids you expect to absorb it all also could have un DX needs of their own which doesn't seem to matter if they aren't struggling in the right way

What exactly do you think I'm expecting them to absorb?

Do you think that every complaint made by a little child must be genuine, valid and taken seriously?

Do you think I must act on the say-so of any complaining parent, even if they've got the wrong end of the stick, are being unreasonable, are seeking privilege for their child?

@Whatwouldscullydo

My DD was shoved over on the stairs and trodden on it im.am are for wanting that kid no where frickin near her?

OK.

You actually don't care about the other kids do you.

Honestly, you sound ridiculous. Of course that's unacceptable and I care very much about every child in my class.

Whatwouldscullydo
Exactly. Disruptive behaviour is on a spectrum. Not all children who disrupt learning have SEN and not all children with SEN disrupt learning.

It's wrong to try and confuse the two.

Given at secondary some students manage to quickly work out which teachers they can mess around with and which they can't, and not all children who disrupt have SEN, it's fairly obvious that having a decent behaviour policy and staff following it makes a big difference.

I had a meeting with a parent of a child with a range of SEN needs. Interestingly, the student was responding best to staff with clear routines and they knew where they stood. They were able to use their exit card when needed and they knew that member of staff was consistent. The thing that stressed the child out was going to lessons where they didn't know what was expected because on one day they were allowed to stay in the room being silly, but on other days they would get a warning from it. It seemed like the whole thing was based on the teacher deciding what they considered acceptable varied on any given day.

I've also worked in a school that was in Special Measures. One of the main factors affecting learning: classroom behaviour. Leadership didn't have a handle on it, didn't have meaningful procedures in place, class teachers were essentially on their own to do their own thing. Disruption was the norm from most students in most classes. With new leadership and proper direction behaviour improved. Would people seriously argue that suddenly 3/4 of the school have gone from having additional needs to not in the space of a few months?

Well according to you they have to absorb alot befire you think it finally leaves whiny category ajd enters into possibly being considered a problem. And thats where it git her. She "ignored " the wobbling and the chair kicking and taking and throwing around if her stuff, so not to be a "whiny arsehole" she even ignored the shoving it then escalated to.

The kid didn't wake up one day and decide to push her over on the stairs. He'd gotten away with all the rest if it first.

I'm a teacher and, if you came to me asking for your child to be moved, unless they were being hurt, I'd do it but think you were an arse.

And I'd continue to think you're an arse too. So then we'd be even. However, reading your comments and replies to Lola have cleared up something that has been bugging me for a long while and it is that there appear to be teachers like you who ignore a whole lot of low-level bullying and disruption to a quiet child and give absolutely no shits about them. In our case the DC started self harming and was eventually physically abused in secondary school by the primary school low-level bullies.

The teacher, as i finally managed to tell him a few years later, was an arse of the highest order and lucky that i only cottoned on after he'd left the school. His boss at the time eventually acknowledged that he'd been shit at his job in that respect.

Well according to you they have to absorb alot befire you think it finally leaves whiny category ajd enters into possibly being considered a problem
Exactly, the children seem to be expected to tolerate all sorts of disruption because it's not deemed big enough of an issue.

It's where the phrase 'low level disruption' gets us. For some teachers, it's perfectly fine to have the drip drip drip of lots of disruption as long as it isn't a big issue and any child who has the audacity to want to learn free from disruption is deemed whiny.

Lola

Great to hear of your experiences turning around a school in special measures.

Can you give a bit more detail about how the disruptive NT kids were supported

Because we both know a consistent Behaviour Plan, high expectations, strict routines and exit passes can't be the whole story.

Specifics, when they disrupted a class and refused to leave.

This getting ridiculous now! Pupils arrive at secondary and within weeks are all behaving . Except no one in the real world actually thinks that !
Of course some schools are better than others at dealing with behaviour, just as some schools have a greater range of behavioural / SEN challenges to face. Of course children should have an education that is not interrupted through bad behaviour yet this is not solved by someone telling them not to do it for a few weeks!

"He'd gotten away with all the rest if it first."

I'm so sorry that that happened to your daughter.

FWIW I doubt he was getting away with anything. Parents rarely understand that there are processes in place and sanctions, because they don't see them and neither does their child. Despite best efforts, children do not always respond. I am sorry for your daughter but as a teacher I can't help wondering what was going on with that little boy.

interesting - don't you agree that it would be helpful to tell the child who has been suffering under the disruption that something is happening? or their parents?

"And I'd continue to think you're an arse too. So then we'd be even. However, reading your comments and replies to Lola have cleared up something that has been bugging me for a long while and it is that there appear to be teachers like you who ignore a whole lot of low-level bullying..."

I must have said upwards of a dozen times that I never ignore bullying.

Sometimes children and parents have genuine grievances. Sometimes they do not. I can see that some people don't believe me but it's true.

@LolaSmiles

Well according to you they have to absorb alot befire you think it finally leaves whiny category ajd enters into possibly being considered a problem Exactly, the children seem to be expected to tolerate all sorts of disruption because it's not deemed big enough of an issue.

It's where the phrase 'low level disruption' gets us. For some teachers, it's perfectly fine to have the drip drip drip of lots of disruption as long as it isn't a big issue and any child who has the audacity to want to learn free from disruption is deemed whiny.

Do you think every complaint from a child must be acted upon?

Do you think parents never make unreasonable requests or demands?

Little boy? He was 5ft 10 towered over my dd and she was terrified what he would do next but also didn't want to bother the teachers who didn't seem to give a shit , having a go at her for telling him to stop it than dealing with him.

I mean its all very well assuming they "can't help it" but they seemingly can "not help it" only when the teacher isn't looking or isn't there yet.

Awfully convenient isn't it? That behaviour can't be helped whilst simultaneously only ever occurring when no ones looking.

@Brefugee

interesting - don't you agree that it would be helpful to tell the child who has been suffering under the disruption that something is happening? or their parents?

Yes I usually say that they can be assured that the other child is being dealt with appropriately, or something similar.

I can't give details and this isn't always good enough for them.

@Whatwouldscullydo

Little boy? He was 5ft 10 towered over my dd and she was terrified what he would do next but also didn't want to bother the teachers who didn't seem to give a shit , having a go at her for telling him to stop it than dealing with him.

I mean its all very well assuming they "can't help it" but they seemingly can "not help it" only when the teacher isn't looking or isn't there yet.

Awfully convenient isn't it? That behaviour can't be helped whilst simultaneously only ever occurring when no ones looking.

Oh are we talking secondary?

My experience is in primary.

scully you are obviously, understandably upset about a very specific incident. I'm genuinely sorry that that happened to your child. Without knowing anything about the boy, the history or the school I don't really know what else to say.

My middle son was paired with another child in primary who was disruptive and eventually diagnosed with attention deficit. They also used to be allowed to sit in during lunchtimes and became firm friends even learning to play chess together (very gradually).

Sometimes it works really well.

How about just realising that being quiet doesn't mean every thing is OK. That whilst you are focusing on helping a chikd you believe to have sone kind of SN , that there's another child there too equally worthy of consideration.

You see it as encouraging inclusion and tolerance. But that child could well see it as a message there education isn't as important and their job is to keep you happy at the expense of their own education and well being.

And that if they have put up with X and Y it naturally follows they have to put up with Z too as clearky X and Y didnt matter.

Children will listen to what you tell them.

Don't tell them that they don't matter.

Yes I usually say that they can be assured that the other child is being dealt with appropriately, or something similar.
I can't give details and this isn't always good enough for them.

I wonder why schools and teachers don't get that being super vague elicits a disgruntled response from bullying (and other) victims and their parents?

Also you haven't given much indication that what a lot of pp here think of as harassment at best (the low-level disruption) shouldn't be nipped in the bud, since you repeatedly called it whining.

I do appreciate the time you've taken on this thread but all I'm getting from this thread is that i am VERY glad my DC are finished with school.

My ds was always the disruptive child. I asked for him to be sat on a desk on his own in front of the teacher. Better for the whole class and for him too

@Whatwouldscullydo

How about just realising that being quiet doesn't mean every thing is OK. That whilst you are focusing on helping a chikd you believe to have sone kind of SN , that there's another child there too equally worthy of consideration.

You see it as encouraging inclusion and tolerance. But that child could well see it as a message there education isn't as important and their job is to keep you happy at the expense of their own education and well being.

And that if they have put up with X and Y it naturally follows they have to put up with Z too as clearky X and Y didnt matter.

Children will listen to what you tell them.

Don't tell them that they don't matter.

I don't think that I do that but I am hearing what you say and will pay particular attention tomorrow.

I am not aware of any unhappy children in my class. They all seem to get along and I've built good relationships with them so far. But I think it is possible that someone who appears happy and uncomplaining, could be worried, so I will look at it again.

"Also you haven't given much indication that what a lot of pp here think of as harassment at best (the low-level disruption) shouldn't be nipped in the bud, since you repeatedly called it whining."

You have no idea what I consider whining.

Do you think no primary-age child is capable of unfounded complaint, exaggeration, scapegoating, lying?